More intelligent people are coming out to comment on the CPF hot potato.
Unfortunately many still cannot remove the blinkers placed over them
and still talking like the blind men describing the elephant. After
decades of conditioning, the mind will stay clear of the invisible OB
markers and did not even know they are there. Some one sent me a story
of a cage of monkeys that would beat up any monkey trying to climb to
the top to take the hanging bananas but did not know why. Even the
monkeys themselves did not know why and instinctively did what they were
conditioned to do, beat up any monkey attempting to climb up for the
bunch of bananas. And all the new monkeys put into the cage would soon
learn to behave that way and think that way.
There are still many basic and fundamental issues and principles that
all the do gooders have forgotten. First and foremost, the CPF is not a
govt pension scheme. The govt does not contribute a cent to it. In fact
the govt is riding on it and benefiting from it so much that it is
looking at the CPF from a very different perspective, as a nation’s
reserves, as a cheap source of fund, and forgot that it is the people’s
private savings. It is the people’s money and must be returned. Nothing
more, nothing less. The people did not give the govt the authority to
mess around with their life savings.
Here is the another important principle. No one, not even the govt, is
allowed or can be allowed by legislation to touch the people’s savings,
be it in the CPF or any organisation, or in any form. This is a very
dangerous precedent that must not be violated and taken lightly, and
must be opposed vehemently. Unfortunately the daft Sinkies cannot see
anything wrong with it.
The other issues are all about what is a savings scheme for old age. I
make it clear here, we are not talking about a pension scheme but the
people’s own savings scheme using their own money. By right, the first
principle is that the govt should get lost, get out of the way unless it
is contributing money, real money, into it. Other people’s money cannot
be touched under whatever stupid excuses. It is none of the govt’s
business except in an advisory capacity, using persuasive arguments to
encourage the people to save.
How much is enough to save? Here all the do gooders would like the
people to save to live like a king. Even if the people did not have
enough to eat and may die tomorrow, the do gooders would want to seize
the few cents in their hands to put into a savings scheme. KNN. They
kill you and you got to say thank you to them and be eternally grateful.
No savings scheme is enough even for the super rich. But the super rich
do not need to save. And for the poor, it is a case of daily struggle
for survival. Where got money to save? Did anyone forgotten about the
phrase ‘live within your means’? Yes live within your means, save within
your means and live with whatever savings you have. Minimum sum to the
rich is nothing, sup sup suey. To the poor, it is their blood, forcing
them to set aside a minimum sum even of $10k is like squeezing blood
from them. $10k is a lot of money for a lot of necessities they could
not afford. A hundred thousand or more is luxury to many. Why don’t the
do gooders spare a few dollars to them instead if they are that caring?
One of the biggest problems with the CPF is the draining of the members’
savings by you know what. No need to elaborate on this as they are
taboo. What, got elephant in the classroom? Where is the guilt for
causing the CPF scheme to be in such a deplorable state when many, after
saving so much over a life time have to cry money not enough?
Forget about the silly discussions on minimum sums and the silly reasons
quoted to justify the minimum sums. Only the daft will waste time
discussion daft and farcical issues and reasonings and think they are
valid and reasonable.
There will be many people at the bottom end of a society that need help.
There will be many more among the very senior citizens that need
financial help that no amount of minimum sums or saving schemes can
help. This is where the govt must come in. What is the point of having a
govt and paying taxes? No, don’t be a fool to think that we are paying
very low tax.
The CPF cannot be the only instrument for a retirement plan or scheme.
You cannot load everything into the CPF scheme to cover every hole that
needs to be covered. In reality, people depend on many alternative means
to support their retirement. The CPF can be one of the many retirement
plans and schemes. And it should be one that provides a minimum
retirement fund, depending on the individual and their ability to save.
An airy fairy minimum sum quoted from thin air, oops, my apologies,
computed by geniuses and very talented statisticians, is a ‘knows all’
answer to a good retirement plan for the people. Really, got such a
perfect formula meh?
The final sum in the individual’s savings has to be the sum that the
individual has to live with, within his means. If one is to satisfy this
godly minimum sum, many would not have money to eat everyday in their
life time. The govt cannot run away or shirk its responsibility from
providing a safety net to those who are in need, not because they are
stupid, but there are many circumstances that turned their miserable
lives upside down. Even those who are blessed to be super talents or who
have millionaire ministers as parents, do not be cocksure you would not
end up in the shit hole. Life is unpredictable and don’t be smug.
Let me end here by saying it again, the CPF cannot be the only savings
scheme for retirement and the amount to be saved by the individuals must
vary according to their means. And the govt has a big responsibility,
other than paying themselves in the millions, to use their million
dollar brains to work out some retirement backup schemes for those that
are not well endowed and been dealt with a bad hand in life.
And please, do gooders, be real. Not everyone is the same, as good and blessed as you.
Kopi level - Yellow
34 comments:
And the govt has a big responsibility, other than paying themselves in the millions, to use their million dollar brains to work out some retirement backup schemes for those that are not well endowed and been dealt with a bad hand in life.
RB
Why would they want to care, when they know that 60% are very scared to even accidentally vote them out because the strongest opposition party is kaki lang and also not ready to be govt?
Whether by design (just look at Aung Juan Soon Chee) or by luck, that WP is the strongest opposition party is the best thing to happen to PAP.
And maybe even Hainan Ah Ko party can be used as a backup too, should WP become not kaki lang any more. To the surprise of many, including myself, why Hainan Ah Ko could even qualify as a Presidential candidate in 2011?
@ my worldview is the only correct worldview, RB:
>> The people did not give the govt the authority to mess around with their life savings.
Bzzt! Wrong. Patently fucking wrong! The people gave (and continue to give) the government authority to GOVERN their lives. CPF management is written into law, and backed up by The Constitution lah. Until you can torpedo this point, your arguments are at best moot.
>> Here is the another important principle. No one, no even the govt, is allowed or can be allowed by legislation to touch the people’s savings, be it in the CPF or any organisation, or in any form.
But CPF is a special case (again, read the fucking law PROPERLY lah before making an argument, lazy bastard). “Provident Fund” is a fund to “provide for the future”. Since the road to the future is constantly changing, there needs to be “room to move” in the law. This a COLLECTIVE FUND (a form of hidden TAX), not your own private bank account lah.
You want to compare apples with durians, so the method you use is to make all the apples durians...What the fucking fuck lah?!? Even the most fucked-up lawyers won't resort to this type of argumentation.
>> This is a very dangerous precedent ...
Logical Fallacy: Slippery Slope http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
>> Only the daft will waste time discussion daft and farcical issues and reasonings and think they are valid and reasonable.
Logical Fallacy: No True Scotsman http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman
IMO, judging the essentially lack of personal responsibility in the Singapore culture, to give away the entire ball of wax to the 55+ year olds is a recipe for DISASTER. The proof can be garnered by looking at the financial states of ruin of those who did receive their lump-sums: many of them are BROKE now after have a grand old good time with “their” CPF.
A good govt has a responsibility to do THE RIGHT THING, sometimes the most unpopular thing, for purely utilitarian and pragmatic purposes. As a generalisation, you simply cannot trust oldies with the entire lump sum of CPF and expect them to “behave rationally” . Since CPF is a National Scheme, instituted and administered by The State, it is the responsibility of the govt. to ensure that the fund doesn't go into cash crisis. In the vent of a cash crisis, the state will have to raid the taxpayer one more time for a “bail out”.
Oldies who've spent all their last dime will UNDOUBTEDLY come begging, cap in hand for “welfare”. If you have even the slightest understanding of human nature, and the nature of “short-term thinking especially when you are old”, you will know that you might as well handover a case of whiskey and car keys to a bunch of 17 year olds if you're going to hand over the entire “provident fund” to oldies.
IMO, the current CPF legislation—with all its “faults” and hot button issues-- is the best, most pragmatic COMPROMISE.
I know RB will disagree, but I'll state the case anyway :-)
I'm on the side of the government on this. Go ahead with the name-calling :-))
Great Article.
CPF Board is just like a Bank. A Bank that offers Fixed Deposit for a term of 40 years approximately. Forty Years fixed deposit and they pay an interest around 4%? Must be a damn lousy bank or cheating bank. Lagi worse after 40 years they ask you by mandate to continue to renew the Fixed Deposit till you drop dead.
And a lot of daft sinkies say wah what a great "pension" scheme the cpf is. No wonder the hongkong actress says singpaoreasn are simple minded.
If you take a look at the government cartoons, you'll almost definitely conclude that the govt thinks Singaporeans are all RETARDS: (but could they be right? Hmmm...)
http://forums.vr-zone.com/chit-chatting/624403-comcare-cartoonised-the-simple-minded-singaporeans.html
"Forty Years fixed deposit and they pay an interest around 4%? Must be a damn lousy bank or cheating bank."
Anon 11:02 am
They could not or dare not do this if only the Sinkie opposition is ready to be govt.
So are majority (aka 60%) Sinkies simple minded just because they dare not vote in a opposition which is not ready to be govt?
Hahahahahah, look at this simple minded Matilah Singapura telling everyone is wrong and only he is right. What a dud. Or would it be better to say what a nut, from IMH?
@1204:
>> Matilah Singapura telling everyone is wrong and only he is right
WOW! You are LIAR, you dishonest motherfucker! . Lucky for you, you are also a coward who hides behind an anon label, and therefore suffer no consequence;-)
Really dude, you have to resort to LIES to try to discredit my already less-than-perfect comments? BTW, I write opinion, not truth---just so you know.
Just have the balls and call me a CUNT in the comments lah. You resort to lies, you discredit yourself--which is ok since your cowardice protects you...
Got lumpah to speak truth?
@1102
>> Great Article.
I don't agree. It is wrong on so many levels.
>> CPF Board is just like a Bank.
No, CPF is NOTHING like a bank.
CPF contribution is COMPULSORY, bank deposits are voluntary.
You are stuck with the CPF interest rate. With a bank you can shop around for various products and brands.
At a bank you get back EVERYTHING plus interest what you put into VOLUNTARILY to fixed deposit. CPF you do not get back only part of what you put into, and that can change by govt policy. (lawful and constitutional).
Lawsuit; You can sue the bank for breaches of contract. Good luck trying to sue CPF Board ;-)
Your relationship with he bank has no political component.
CPF is a political manipulative tool, used i conjunction with HDB. It is very effective (and one might argue NECESSARY) in mass population control by economic leverage
Although banks are regulated by the state, their conduct is largely self-governed within the finance industry.
The CPF Board responds directly to policies made in parliament. It can be argued that CPF need only answer to PARLIAMENT, and not at all obliged to answer directly to the people themselves.
A bank OTOH is directly accountable to its depositors.
Thus CPF is not a bank and is nothing like a bank neither in form nor in function.
Get the facts right lah!
Here's the challenge to redbean and all those time-wasting morons who congregate at Hong Lim for their "shared-misery" events:
You have only ONE CASE to prove:
That the money in your name held in CPF is YOUR MONEY--i.e. you have TOTAL OWNERSHIP, which means you control every cent--how it is used, how it is spent...you have 100% authority over your PRIVATE PROPERTY.
Once you can prove that, then you can take your dough, or stop contributing or do whatever the fuck you like. The govt will have NO AUTHORITY to force you apart from your hard-earned money. (I consider all money to be hard-earned)
Can or not? Hint: gabfests and mass wailings of self-appointed "victims" at Hong Lim don't do Jack Shit. ;-)
To all,
Disregard what Matilah says. It's all lies. I am in the field right now. When I return today. I will sit down and tear each of his arguments into ribbons. Till then.
Darkness 2014
Tell you its a form if tax you dun agree.No long story or argument.Just cheongkong all cpf in exchange for free healthcare for life.
Whats the point of collecting 100 k cpf but end up paying 200 k in unaffordable hospital stay and treatment when times to come where our children may be burden.
To retire peacefully one need to be free from worry of medical fees.Thats the purpose of cpf retirement.
Rich cheongkong more.Poor cheongkong lesser.Nothing wrong.Rich never make noise as proven by less turnout at hlp.
Less richer or poor must know free healthcare is better.
Cheongkong is the way to go.
Cheongkong.Go for it.
Meanwhile I want you all to consider this,
This is what Matilah wrote,
'IMO, judging the essentially lack of personal responsibility in the Singapore culture, to give away the entire ball of wax to the 55+ year olds is a recipe for DISASTER. The proof can be garnered by looking at the financial states of ruin of those who did receive their lump-sums: many of them are BROKE now after have a grand old good time with “their” CPF.'
Hardly anecdotal. Do some oldies go overboard by splurging on mistresses in Bataam along with other money wasting diversions. Of course they do. But that will always be the minority.
So by Matilah's logic just because a thing has a latent possibility of being abuse. Then it should be curbed. If that's the case why not convert both the ECP and PIE into a recreational canal. As from time to time it's used as an impromptu race track by irresponsible drivers.
I think the crux of the issues relates to trust, between citizen and state.
The state in its zeal to grow the economy on the cheap has created an untenable situation where the cost of living in Singapore is the highest in the world. That's well and fine if wages rise correspondingly. But the problem is wages has not kept up with the relentless cost of living - it would and possibly could if the CPF wasn't further hollowed by the HDB fly in the ointment under the justification of promoting home ownership by the masses. But it was. So now what the government of the day is faced with is the conundrum where the average Ahmad, Ah Kau and Muthu doesn't have enough to see themselves thru their golden age.
Joe average isn't to be blamed for this. After all none of them asked to live, work and play in the worlds most expensive city? This wasn't an aspiration yearned by the average man in the street.
My point is the failure the CPF was a perfectly foreseeable by product of putting the economy on round after round of steroids.
This begs the question - if we can buy into the idea. The government of the day was directly responsible for creating the very conditions that rendered the CPF an ineffectual means of provisioning for retirement.Then why should the onus be placed on the average citizen to right it.
Why? Where then is role of government.....and there you have it....a brief history of how trust goes to the dogs.
The rest are merely details....but this the chunky beef that you should all take along with you.
Darkness 2014
@ Darkness/ dotseng or whatever the fuck you call yourself:
You don't have the authority to tell people SHIT, mate ;-)
Anyway, I look forward to your lame and futile attempt.
Hint: If you cannot prove CPF is your privately-owned property, you have already lost.
So go ahead, rip it to shreds :-)
@ Darkness:
And so we begin:
>> Do some oldies go overboard by splurging on mistresses in Bataam along with other money wasting diversions. Of course they do. But that will always be the minority.
Even a minority can be significant. Every "snowball effect" begins with a minority. There is no telling what will happen once a culture of financial profligacy takes root. I'll give more anecdotal "minority" evidence: Of all my friends who took their money at 55, only about 3 of them have money left. The rest are back in the labour force working as; from the low end security personnel to the luckier ones who managed to snare professional positions at reasonable pay.
>> So by Matilah's logic just because a thing has a latent possibility of being abuse. Then it should be curbed
Not any old "thing". The "thing" here can seriously affect the financial health of the world darn nation. Imagine if the state had to rid the reserves to pay out these idiots?
Why? Why should the rest of the citizenry bear the burden for a few oldies with one foot in the grave anyway. This is STATE business, it is not a "moral" discussion
>> The government of the day was directly responsible for creating the very conditions that rendered the CPF an ineffectual means of provisioning for retirement.
Alamak, you are ignorant or your memory is failing. Way back in the long ago past the government themselves warned Singaporeans not to depend on CPF for retirement. They suggested and encouraged people to take out private insurance policies and providence products.
>> Then why should the onus be placed on the average citizen to right it.
There is no onus on the citizen to "right it". The onus of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY has always been on the citizen to look after his own best economic interests.
'Hint: if you cannot prove CPF is your privately owners property you have lost.'
Where and how did that piece of dried up bureaucratic shit get stuck in your head like chewing gum?
You mean to tell me and the rest here. You can just make it all up as you go along.
The issue here is not about ownership. It is all about the original spirit and intendment of CPF along with the ethical and moral obligations of a trustee - the government to the citizen.
All I am saying is thru the years all sorts of disingenuous arguments have been forwarded by the government to effectively alter the focus of the original spirit and intendment of the CPF charter.
What has that got to do with your stupid idea of
'Hint: if you cannot prove CPF is your privately owned prosperty,, you have lost.'
Do you mean to tell me, you wrote all that you wrote here and you are not even aware of the principle of equitable ownership and how it may even relate to the entire CPF argument.
Darkness 2014
@ Matilah Singapura..
State Business aka Governance needs no MORAL OBLIGATION AND MORALITY?
patriot
Like that
MATILAH
SINGAPOOREANS.
MATI BANYAK KALI.
patriot
To sicko Matilar, if he anyhow digs with his fingers and they got gangrene, he would chop off the fingers of every man to stop them from digging with their fingers.
How many agree with this kinda of sick logic?
At the risk of repetition, but here goes.
What's its name is but a sad lonely old man behind his key board in his darkened room playing with its small tool and massaging its inflated sense of self. We all know who it is. No need to own up.
On the net no one knows you're a dog - mate.
One large kopi for Mr Bean.
/// And the govt has a big responsibility, other than paying themselves in the millions, to use their million dollar brains to work out some retirement backup schemes for those that are not well endowed and been dealt with a bad hand in life. ////
redbean
I don't know what "government" redbean is talking about.
But I don't think a PAP government believes it is their job to do anything for Singaporeans.
In fact, i think A PAP government's job is to be paid a million dollar salary.
And in return the PAP government will tell Singaporeans that everything is also not their job and responsibility.
can this be true?
Actually there is one easy way for everyone to accept high minimum sum and high influx of foreigners - give every citizens >18 yo, a basic income ($1300 based on cpf website) unconditionally. Many nobel lauureates are supporters of this scheme. Ministers pay must also be indexed against this basic income.
(www.basicincome.org)
Because of two major defective gov policies - the high influx of foreigners and use of cpf to buy flats, the costs of living has became unaffordable to many. The only way the gov can do for the people is to give them a basic income to compensate for the rise of costs of living. This basic income must be give unconditionally. For the rich, they can opt to donate this amount to a trusts for the poor. Let this society be a bit more kind and loving.
Dear RB, you are constantly writing on this CPF issue. I think you are whipping a dead horse. Nothing will be done about it and I suggest you give up. Why waste time on this knowing that you have no hope of getting any reply from the PAP. Give up this pointless pursue of the impossible.
I suggest you write about happier issue like the improvement of welfare of the Singaporeans. Write on topics that would result in improving the lives of Singaporeans. Flogging a dead horse is a waste of your time and also stirring up useless responses from your readers. Agree? speed.
Dear RB,
"I suggest you write about happier issue like the improvement of welfare of the Singaporeans" by voting out this useless PAP government.
"Flogging a dead horse" is like hoping the PAP government will ever do anything to help Singaporeans.
It "is a waste of your time and also stirring up useless responses from your readers. Agree?"
Slow Motion.
A PAPig internet post courtesy of money coming from you know where.
This is why Sinkies are called daft. They took your money, you kpkb a bit. Nothing happens, give up and your money gone. How stupid can you Sinkies be?
Oh my god, oh my god, it is time to cull all the daft sinkies. They are totally beyond hope.
Pity they don't have the same reward system for their IB writers. 40 dollars per comment compared to thousands paid to a select group of 'yes sir yes sir three bags full' collection of misfits. No wonder the pitiful standard of the comments. Perhaps try threatening them with replacement by FTs.
Lifestyles of billionaires:
Sex, drugs & public divorce: New normal for Wall St?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/sex-drugs-public-divorce-normal-140000345.html
Can't wait to see PAP roll out the red carpet for their beloved billionaires.
Tycoon's estate pays $360m to children fathered on sex safaris
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/tycoons-estate-pays-360m-to-children-fathered-on-sex-safaris-1138216.html
-----------------
Are these the types of billionaires that PAP intends to bring into S'pore to create jobs for Singaporeans?
@ patriot:
The State is an AMORAL entity. Its function and form is solely determined by laws--notably the constitution, in our case.
The State must survive no matter what the cost: human citizens if need be expended will be "sacrificed" so that the state can continue existing.
Therefore it is LAWFUL for the state to impose taxation, conscription and even send citizens TO THEIR DEATHS -- for e.g. in a war it is accepted that The State has the authority to sacrifice citizens for its sake.
The State has a territorial monopoly of AUTHORITY on VIOLENCE, justice and law, taxation and regulation and has THE final say in matters of dispute, conflict.
Sheeple-citizens take too lightly the idea of the state. Which is why they lack the understanding when the govt passes legislation which seems "unfair" or "immoral".
Citizens live and die, and often need to be sacrifice, but The State lives on.
Perhaps now you'll better understand why I consider myself a state-less anarcho-capitalist sovereign individual ;-)
@ Darkness:
Stop evading the issue. All the protests at Hong Lim have specifically stated "Return OUR CPF" --- the operative word 'OUR' meaning The Deluded Sheeple quite wrongly believe that the money in CFP is "theirs".
If you can't even muster a solid argument to lil' ol' insignificant me, what fucking hope do you have arguing the CPF case with the fuckers you elected into parliament?
IMO and bad math calculation: ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, KOSONG, Sweet Fuck All hope.
Here's my position in a nutsack:
The State has a duty to ensure that it doesn't go into the red financially. If that means it has to tinker and even "re-neg" on previous practices and procedures: SO BE IT. If there is a need or an issue that requires "fixing" the state has the LEGAL AUTHORITY to sacrifice lives so that it, and the rest of the nation can continue existing.
Singapore is an on-going SOCIAL EXPERIMENT. This is what distinguished this young cuntry from other basket case cuntrees: Singapore DARES to experiment, even if certain sections of the citizenry suffer the occasional whack to the head or usually a much needed kick up the arse.
MS, just get a minister to say the CPF money is not the people's money, then I will believe you.
What you are saying is that the govt has de facto, taken the people's money, but still the people's money without saying it.
@1037:
Not quite. Once you hand over your money to the state, you no longer control it and thus it ceases to be "your" money. For e.g. once you pay your taxes, you don't get to choose how the govt uses that money.
Many times, the govt will use that money in ways which will make you fucking angry, but there's really nothing you can do about it, because the govt is a legal entity with the authority to decide how ad why expenses are made.
P.S. If you want to play word games and still call money held by the state as "the people's money" or "our money", go ahead and stay delusional.
However, what you think and how you think will never (never never never ....) alter facts of reality.
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