South China Sea – History versus geography

I normally would not care to comment on what the lunatics said. There was one that posted a comment in the Today forum calling Singapore to take sides with the Americans against China in the South China Sea dispute. He urged Singapore not to remain neutral as neutrality was a sign of appeasement. This kind of thought must come from the same mindset that Singapore could punch above its weight and would make a difference in geopolitical struggle. Many Singaporeans still did not know that standing on the head of a tiger and shouting out loud did not really mean anything as the power came from the tiger and not the mouse.

Another forumer replied in the Today paper calling the one suggesting that Singapore must take sides with the Americans against China as naïve. The naïve in his own way thought he was the judge of the South China Sea dispute and already decided that China was wrong in his deluded mind. No need to ask why he thought he was the one to judge the right or wrong of such a dispute.

The norms of international relations went through many phases starting with historical claims. Every native today claimed ownership of the land on historical grounds. They were the first settlers or founded the land first. Even the Jews were claiming their rights from history to own Israel as a God given land. Removing the historical justification, then all the natives in South East Asia or the whole world would have no rights to their land.

The next unwritten law was conquest. Past civilizations and their empires were decided by conquest. Then you have the Egyptian Empire, the Persian Empire, Ottoman Empire, Greek and Roman Empire also the Chinese Empire. And their territories grew or shrank according to their power and influence.

This was eclipsed by a moderated version of power and conquest in colonialism. The rule then was based on the western version of the Doctrine of Christian Discovery originated from the Vatican. The papal bull proclaimed that all the non Christian land is occupied by sub humans and the Christian Europeans had the right to conquer and seized their lands.

Many countries today were established on the above principles, historical rights, conquest or the Doctrine of Christian Discovery. Anyone wants to rubbish all these precedence and historical claims to start afresh? The law of history, conquest and the Doctrine of Christian Discovery no longer relevant, to be overruled by the new Rule of Law of the Sea based on geography?

The lunatic claimed that geography and the Rule of Law of the Sea now stand supreme and override historical claims, and the claims of conquest and colonialism? Well, in the asylum, the lunatics are the kings and they can claim anything they want.

Singapore to take sides with the Americans to fight the Chinese over claims in the South China Sea that it has nothing to do with? Or Singapore must guarantee freedom of navigation of the high seas and must defend this right. Oh, I see, Singapore can punch above its weight and its voice means a lot and the super powers are trembling when Singapore opens its mouth and decides to take sides.


Hermit said...

RB's fonts getting smaller and smaller again. My eyes very pain.

virgo49 said...

Mr RB, our Mr Hen had said No Armed Forces in the World trained like the SAF.

We are second to none. We have the most modern air fighting machines. We have hundreds of thosusands of reserved fighting men. Now some more foreign talented volunteer soldiers just need two weeks SBMT.

If Philipines with their WWII aircrafts and battleships dared to take on the PRC, we cannot meh??

Anonymous said...

/// Singapore to take sides with the Americans to fight the Chinese over claims in the South China Sea ... ///

Maybe PAP and their Aliens should take sides with the Americans?
Why not we Singaporeans just sit back and let PAP and PAP's Aliens do some work for a change?

How will Singaporeans benefit if we take sides with America or China?
I only want to know what Singaporeans can do to benefit fellow Singaporeans.

Anonymous said...

As one uncle mentioned in one of his comments yesterday, at his (old) age, he has come to believe wisdom is inborn....?

Anonymous said...

Some are just born "kong cum" and choose to earn "easy $" trading his soul....?

Anonymous said...

As RB mentioned few days ago, at the age of 60, many are already 阿公 and 阿嬷。

Anonymous said...

For many of those above 60 without any grandchildren, think about Darwinism. It could be more often right than wrong.

Anonymous said...

Anyway, a woman's biological reproduction date is good till 35? Beyond that ( biologically ) it is better ( advisable ) not to reproduce?

Anonymous said...

"Singapore to take sides with the Americans to fight the Chinese over claims in the South China Sea that it has nothing to do with?"

Aiyoh RB, just because u said so means Singapore really has nothing to do with? U are not Hsien Loong, u know. And u did not even contest the last election, or for that matter any election!

Chua Chin Leng aka redbean said...

Hi Hermit, you should be able to enlarge the fonts using the gear looking icon on top right of your page or use the function in 'view'.

Anonymous said...

In sinkieland, chasing GDP growth at all cost at the top and below many (daft) sinkies joining the race blindly ( and unwisely ) to chase their careers early on has ( sadly and unfortunately ) resulted in many sinkies babies born to mothers after 35 yo and suffering all kinds biological problems ( and defects ).

Anonymous said...

Surviving and growing up in ( pressure cooker from cradle to grave ) sinkieland as a ( normal ) new born to adulthood or for parents raising a normal child is already tough enough ( and that probably is already an understatement ).

Anonymous said...

as for Singapore, just do what the hokkein saying....

"see wind sail sampan2".......

Anonymous said...

To go through all kinds of agony ( and torture ) in this ( super and extremely harsh economic, social and political ) environment is something to be avoided if there is a choice. That calls into question wisdom.

Anonymous said...

And of course for those 61 and above 阿公 and 阿嬷 without grandchildren, it may mean YEWR gene is a reject according to Darwin's Theory? Be wise and do the wise thing? Not for yourself but for humanity?

This is postulated in general and does not specifically refer to anybolee? Do not take offence if YEW happened to be one old man or woman without any grandchildren?There are exceptions?

Remember sinkieland is the unique exceptional special one and only "mythological unicorn", according to somebolee's narrative?

Anonymous said...

Talking about gene, is being a "traitor" hereditary?

Yew can sell YEWR soul according to the "wind"?

But what would happen after YEW are gone?

Can YEW control the politics in Americana?

What if they withdraw back into their ( isolationist ) shell ( like pre-WW II ) after "stirring shit" and join the fray ( like the proverbial fisherman ) after the cranes and clams have fought their themselves to exhaustion and some to their death?

Remember WWII?

Anonymous said...

Family Genetics can be improved in future generations through marriage.
Once a traitor has worked for the enemy.
He and his His family will forever be remembered by history.

virgo49 said...

Hi Anon 9.29

I am without any baggage of grandchildren and am most happy to be in this situation

Still no title of "kong kong" not in a dazed scenario

SINKIE land kong cum joined the USA against PRC can scoot off without any second thought.

Frightening to be called Kong Kong means already in a daze.

Unable to compete Matilah in having full colourful sexual episodes are u are now kong kong.

Anonymous said...

Uncle Virgo 49, survival calls for versatile mindsets?

A gene that cannot thrive in the Sahara Desert does not mean it is an inferior gene .....?

It could well produce geniuses in the abundant temporate climate. ...?

Anonymous said...

But salute those who can still reproduce in a "desert", survive and up bring their ( brood of ) children ..... under an unsustainable economic and social backdrop ( in the long term ) ......?

Anonymous said...

Who knows?

Under greener pastures in Matland, YEW may be in a "daze" one day .....

And some little one(s) ( in their infancy ) crawling to YEW, calling YEW "kong kong, kong kong" ..... oops should be " ye ye ( 爷爷 ) " if YEWRS are sons. .....

Anonymous said...

Anyway year end holidays ( and leaves ) ending soon .....

And back to the ( unlivable ) concrete jungle soon .....

Will miss the endless upon endless of pure oxygen and buildings-free country life in Matland ......

Anonymous said...

Till Dec 2016, so long my dear oldies in MSN .....

Will be a long ( dread and ) draggy ride back to a concrete jungle ( and necessary one would call home )?

Oh no ..... and the torturous endless jam to contend with? Later this evening at Johore, better grab ( and enjoy, savour ) the last bit of cheap bite in Matland before wading back to ( the dark waters of ) the city of sins where everything including pigeon holes, lao pok kar, lousy meal oso cost an arm and leg? Till Dec 2016, so looooong ......

Virgo 49 said...

Wah bro, can stay a month plus in Matland during Dec long holidays.

Must be ones with fore sight during hey days brought cheep cheep properties there.

Lunch in KL, dinner in Genting and have some roller roulette fun in no 100 dollar tax funland.

No need wait for Dec 2016. Can up after off peak. They peak, we offpeak. Buy low sell high.


Veritas said...

There is only one Island China probably bullied Pinoy, that is the take over of Mischief Reef (not Sprately), and Nanshan. And most Spratly are outside the 200nm exclusive zone of Vietnam, Philippines and China. When outside 200nm, so how to claim?

While China only bully pinoy with Mischief Reef, Vietnam's Corvallis Reef, Pigeon Reef and Alison Reef all lies with pinoy's 200 nm.

And none of Spratly lies within Vietnam 200nm as well.

It is like if you claim an Island in the middle of pacific Ocean? So how? Answer is the country with a "historic claims" have a better justification.

This is how UK claim Falkland.

Anonymous said...

veritas, how do pinoys claims those islands group around them? google lists of phillippine island

before spanish conquest, those island group had several different kingdom - sinized kingdom, indianized kingdom and muslim sultanate.

they never belongs to one single empire.

can you enlighten me on these history?

indonesia claimed those island on the basis of majapahit claims and also dutch.

Anonymous said...

why must singapore maintain military superiority over the neighbor.

when the world in turmoil, chaos again, singapore can easily annex other land or also can prevent itself from being conquered by other nation.

Veritas said...

Actually Pinoy have very little civilization and so they will be dis-advantage compared to Chinese who can produce a lot of historical data.

The SE Asia is Malay archipelago and I am sure Malay navigators ever set foot on Spratly. Just that unlike Chinese navigator, they are not able to document it.

When the Spanish came, they never claim Spratly for Pinoy. Unlike Dutch delineate the Indon archipelogo. If Spanish draw the entire SCS map to include Spratly, the likely China will have less say.

Also I may want to amend my earlier posting that Nanshan island now occupied by China. I cannot confirm it. So right now, only Mischeif Reef is occupied by China which is within pinoy 200nm. And at least 3 vietnamese spratly is within pinoy 200nm.

In this case, Pinoy and Vietnam are quite hypocritical.

Anonymous said...

>>virgo49 said...

If Philipines with their WWII aircrafts and battleships dared to take on the PRC, we cannot meh??
December 23, 2015 9:15 am<<

Pinoys have 'Nam leftover choppers. Certainly no battleship. The used coast guard cutters the USA renamed as frigates.

Their poor marines are living in a sunken ship so that they stand guard and claim territory via administrative action.

Veritas said...

Actually pinoy first of all must fuck Vietnam, taking at least 3 Island within 200 nm from Pinoy beach. China looks like only take one.

And China stance in Spratly could be more flexible than what is being portrayed. For example China allow Malaysia and Brunei to take their share of Spratly without making a lot of noise. And the country who took at most spratly is not China but Vietnam.

Malaysia and Brunel has never join hand with Vietnam and pinoy to create a scene for China.

Anonymous said...

veritas, had you realized that US is following british old tricks -divide and rule

British began to interfere with malay sultanate affairs by siding one sultan over another.

British helps the brother ( had no chance to become sultan) to overthrow legitimate ruler.

British had sided with rebels to overthrow the legitimate ruler.

In the end, British ruled all of them.

Anonymous said...

the massacre of overseas chinese by Dutch during their occupation of indonesia
dont get much mention on the western media .

these poor oversea chineses were fighting against dutch alone - 10,000 chinese was slaughtered by Dutch troops. These Chinese community live within the wall cities ( batavia) -indoneisa

i think that jakarta actually belongs to Chinese - ( today, we address them as chinese indonesia)

Anonymous said...

veritas, i think that chinese communities had long exist in those southeast nation - you call it as malay archipelago.

but western historian usually make those biased analysis based on "expansion of chinese empire" - indicate whether Chinese lived there or not.

They say that no chinese lived in tibet, xinjiang simply on the basis that china empire dont expand there.

there are many chinese lived outside china empire.

the name of malay archipelago was given by western historian

what is the old name for such region? what is the old name for the areas, mongolia ?

i am sure that chinese had migrate to other areas ( beyond our expectation)- not being recorded by these history.

Anonymous said...

The dumb Malays did not know or did not want to remember they were robbed and controlled by the British for more than a century. They are so stupid that they would pray to the British like white gods after they looted their countries of whatever they could loot.

Veritas said...

The Chinese history stated that we migrate from the west of Kunlun mountains to the yellow rivers. And we slowly assimilate others until we are so big.

The Malay according to some started off in Taiwan. They probably came to Taiwan from Fujian. From Taiwan they migrated to SE Asia. The Malay are good sea farers and they went as far as Madagascar (Africa) to Easter Island (S America).

The Pinoy Indon Fijian Madagascar, Easter, Hawaii, N Zealand Maori speak a Malay lect. So it could not be Chinese who first seen spratly else all these nations will speak a Chinese lect.

Anonymous said...

Anyone here smell an instigator from down under trying to provoke the situation here?

b said...

US and her western allies are all almost bankrupt states. Furthermore, their population has been dumbed down after second world war. How are they going to fight rich, smart and powerful china and russia?

Anonymous said...

veritas, do you realize that those people are using two different standard?

when they are speaking about chinese, it generally refer to " chinese civilization"

when they are speaking malay , it generally refer to those study of Anthropology,not civilization, culture.

how about the history of these tribe, group before they developed different culture as " chinese civilization"

Anonymous said...

The Malay according to some started off in Taiwan. They probably came to Taiwan from Fujian. From Taiwan they migrated to SE Asia. The Malay are good sea farers and they went as far as Madagascar (Africa) to Easter Island (S America).
did they really have such advanced technology to build bigger ship and reach so far away?

i read a lot history on this topic - they are "good sea fares."

i am surprised that they cant build similar ship in later period.

why didnt they sailed to African, Indian or middle east?

They dont even have a writing system.
Their culture are deeply influenced by Hinduism-ancient indian.

Veritas said...

There are anthropologist studying Chinese civilization as well. Don be silly.

Chinese is among the 4 major civilization on par with Babylonia, Egypt and ancient Indian and everyone admit it. Everywhere else are salvage and babaric then, when Chinese are civilize.

The different standard came about because Chinese are indeed far more civilize far eariler.

No discrimination and that is a fact.

When Chinese are having complicated literacy, the black African and Malay are dwelling in forest and jungle as hunter gatherers.

Veritas said...

The ancient Malay sail by canoes.

Anonymous said...

What about the PAPigs?
Where did they come from?
Do they come from pig chee byes?

virgo49 said...

Hi Anon 2.4

I purposely said battleship is to scorn them. You take it too literally.

Maybe our Mr Hen with surplus funds from our COE/ERP and HDB sale of BTO flats can spare them ONE.

Or ABE of Japan.