6/05/2012
What is the intention of the USA?
The Americans and the western powers have been repeatedly asking about the intention of the Chinese growing military power. Does anyone want to ask or want to know the intention of the American’s overpowering military power? Does anyone want to know why are the Americans putting more than 50% of its military forces in the Pacific Ocean region? Does anyone want to know why are American bases scattered all over the eastern Pacific Oceans?
The answer is clear and transparent. America is the Empire and it will rule the countries in the region. And China, being an emerging power, will not be allowed to threaten the American position as the number One power, the Empire. In the recent Shangri La Dialogue, the Americans made it very clear, with no apologies to the Southeast and East Asian countries that they are the boss and no one can do anything about it. The Americans will dictate the terms of engagement and move its military forces into the region and no one can say no.
During the dialogue the Americans revealed their latest warship, a stealth destroyer that can penetrate the Chinese defense system and move into coastal waters to attack China mainland. The American strategy is all about offence, about attacking other countries to show who is the Empire and who rules the earth.
How did the Chinese respond to this new aggressive threat and intent of the American? They will continue to defend their coastal waters, by using fishing boats to block the path of this stealth destroyer. The Chinese strategy and equipment are defensive in nature, against a hostile and aggressive American military that is threatening war and the threats of war to oppress any emerging power that may pose a challenge to its dominance. Chinese fishing boats against the most advance stealth destroyer that will be invisible to radar but not to the naked eyes of fishermen.
In the Asia Security Summit, the host, Asean, was rudely told that the Americans will be here to stay, like it or not. And it will bring its military prowess to support its Empire status in the region. And for all intent and purposes, the Asean countries would want to minimize big power rivalry and tension in the region, and keep all at a distance. The Asean countries also plead that emerging powers big and small shall have room to grow and their interests be recognized. The Americans say, ‘Don’t bet on that, our strategic interest is supreme.’ The French and Canada are also claiming strategic interests in the region. The former even called itself a power of the Indian and Pacific Ocean. India now got another contender as the Indian Ocean’s only regional power.
The moral of the story is, never to invite the wolf for dinner. It would not go away. Is Southeast Asia seeing a resurgent of colonial powers returning to stake a claim in the region, to carve out their sphere of influence? They all claimed to have strategic interests in the region. Do the countries in the region have any strategic interests as well and will these interests be respected?
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85 comments:
Looking at it from the perspective of the US is only one way. This situation has many interesting facets.
Too much of the critics' focus is on "US interests". There is no deal if only one side is involved. Rest assured, there are lots of deals going on here. Up to a certain point ad hominem attacks and impugning motives weaken rather than strengthen the critics' position.
It should be clear that the US is not "imposing itself" in Asia, as if they weren't "invited". Maybe the invitation wasn't overt -- but it was definitely there. It is certain that NO ASIAN GOVERNMENT likes the fact that China is developing a strong military. Japan's post war constitution has been watered down and they are now armed and building up their military. The rest of Asia is also uneasy with that.
I don't see any problem with "intention". That is quite clear to me, and I cannot understand why some people still don't "get it."
Get a grounding on the doctrine of American Exceptionalism.
Then apply it to the present situation in Asia.
And of course there are "side benefits": expansion of trans global corporations, access to the natural resources in the region, command and control of the maritime waterways, expanded political influence over the regions local governments.
American Exceptionalism might be a a coded phrase for "Imperialism". Who knows?
My God, your thinking is so angmoh. Have you bleached your hair and dyed blond: )
Historically, the Chinese have never attacked or conquered any Southeast Asian countries even at the peak of their military power. Period.
The poisoning of the stupid Southeast Asian minds over the last few centuries with the help of English education was so effective that not many could see the truth or the western truth. Hahaha...including you, the soi cowboy philosopher!
Any superpower who have robbed and got rich from the colonies can afford to be generous and throw some crumbs to the conquered subjects, and they would be so grateful for the kindness.
redbean, Better go to Orchard Road and get your hair re-styled in blond, throw away your Asian tribal dress and buy a nice western-style suit lah.
Then maybe your brain will change ;-)
P.S. I'm botak lah. Nothing left to bleach or dye.
BTW, some of my best work was done in Soi Cowboy. And I've never ever made any claims about "truth" on any stuff written here. Don't take me seriously OK? Or you'll fuck up your day ;-)
Haha, if dyeing blond will help to look like angmoh and be accepted as angmoh, may can try. Unfortunately the flat nose, high cheek bones and chinky eyes are straight giveaways of pathetic angmoh wannabes.
USA is the most evil nation in history. Matilah has watched too many Rambo movies.
hello chua
the amerikan exceptionism mantra summed up in a nutshell
*China and India and other Asian nations pose a challenge that must be confronted and beaten down. Why? Because they may "pass us by as the economic superpower, just as we passed England and France during the last century." And we must stop the yellow devils, because "the prosperity and security of our children and grandchildren depend on us." Apparently, it is not possible for Asian nations and the United States to be secure and prosperous at the same time; "our children" can only prosper at the expense of others.*
http://tinyurl.com/7ktqw8k
Want your mind BLOWN? Watch this video
www.youtube.com/watch?v=egF-rEkYu
The richest man in the world is worth USD 500 trillion,and he is the master of the world.
Is it relevant that the US is a relatively more democractic nation with relativley more respect for human rights? Its the sort of entity that I would like as the Empire. I wonder if there is a certain romance towards China, perhaps genetic, in the author's tone and intent.
As an aside, the author's choice of english for writing articles is duly noted and we can only assume he is lucky to not have been among the 'stupid SEAsian's' to have been 'poisoned'.
Perhaps also spare a thought for the non-Chinese Asians... they are the ones who seem most 'dominated' in the region.
"Historically, the Chinese have never attacked or conquered any Southeast Asian countries even at the peak of their military power. Period."
Ahahahahahaha!
That's because China's ruling Confucian mandarins saw correctly that the development of a standing naval power will inevitably strengthen the mercantile class and undercut the cornerstone of the Confucian worldview where merchants are shunted.
China's land neighbours on the other hand are not so lucky.
You know, there's a reason why Xinjiang translates into New Frontier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zunghar_Khanate#The_second_Oirat-Manchu_war
Also, see Korea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sino-Korean_relations#Han_China-Gojoseon_Korea
Both Han and non Han dynasties invaded and occupied Korea whenever the opportunity presents itself.
And Vietnam, the South-east Asian nation which fought three decades of war with France then America are now in talks to open the Gulf of Tonkin to America again. The Vietnamese have long memories and they worry more about their giant neighbour to the north than the faraway Americans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chinese_domination_of_Vietnam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chinese_domination_of_Vietnam.
America’s Capitalist Party(ACP) which have become almost indistinguishable from China's Communist Party ,They’ve used their power to give themselves absurdly high pay(Leegalised corruption); they have no accountability to shareholders; and they’ve created a new caste, which is now exercising enormous political power.
There are 3 different USA "Interest Groups" dealing with China:
1. The White House and its party,which ever party it may be: "1" has to mangage its own challengers within the USA - while collaborating with the "faction" in power in China - to manage those interests in China that threaten its control.
2. The "Permanent Government" in the USA : The career military, intelligence, defense industry, geopolitical foundations - whose sole permanent and ongoing interest consists in strangling China and eventually dismember it.
3.Wall Street & Big Finance/Banks: The $crowd want only STABILITY in China for their investments or market for their "services" - they'll work with Maoists or Taoists: What counts is the percentage: Rockefeller recommended Kissinger to Nixon - the connection is there.
AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.
Here's the rub:
When America acts to serves American interests in the global arena and cites "American Exceptionalism", some people go nuts, but most people say "OK, they're Americans, they're the good guys".
However when Hitler acted in the global area to serve the interests of the Reich -- such as "Lebensraum" (living space) for the German citizens, everyone ganged up to hatam them out of existence.
Got logic?
June 05, 2012 4:21 PM
Anonymous
*Is it relevant that the US is a relatively more democractic nation with relativley more respect for human rights?*
depends on whom ur comparing to ;-)
http://tinyurl.com/84aqwoe
Anybody ever considered that US running out of visible enemies to practice their war toys? How tu use warships against terrorists ah...if they can't show off ..then how to sell their pea shooters? Better park their stuff in this region..sure got some dumb fuck who will buy....sooner or later...hehe
Ahahahahahaha!
Korea and Xinjiang in SE Asia? Ahahahahahaha!
Now what am I laughing?
Hi JayF, welcome to the blog. May I ask you if Korea and Xinjiang or for that matter Vietnam, SE Asia countries? Vietnam just joined Asean recently.
Anglo-American Establishment has been in control for the better part of the last 300 years
Current American Exceptionalism has its roots in British Imperialism
Tournament of Shadows
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game
Strategic rivalry and conflict between the British Empire and the Russian Empire for supremacy in Central Asia from 1813 till present
Manifest destiny
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny
Americans started to Expand and learn from their British cousins in 1840
And the grand daddy of all ...
The Geographical Pivot of History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartland_Theory
Same shit , different branding ... all over again and again
Regards
Bengster
American way of peace is to terminate the opposition, like the Red Indians, then ruled the leftovers with mercy and human rights, like putting them in the reservation to be protected in case they become extinct.
Dear RB,
Yes the Nazi actually modeled the concentration camps from Amerika's treatment of the Native American Indians
American Genocide ...That is another whole story altogether
Actually the Nazi was late in the game ... another less mentioned episode concentration camps was used by the British in South Africa against dutch in the Boer Wars
Irony is the victims are now oppressors as in the Palestinian issue ....
The Anglo-American Establishment might just turn Singapore into Israel 2.0 to destabilize this region
It might sound far fetch now .... mark my words it wont stop them from trying ....
Regards
Bengster
The Anglo American sure wants to have Sin as the Israel in S E Asia, however it's wish will never materialize. Sin is simply not Israel and its' neighbours is not like the Middle-east kingdoms.
N S E Asian Country need lay a hand militarily on/at Sin, the Latter will atrophy when its' only human resource becomes useless without augmentation from natural resources.
The better endowed in Sin will flow out to resource and industry rich countries as has been happening more than a decade now. The brain drain will gather pace as cheaper alien workers are imported with little or no restrain, leaving the locals with no choice.
AND DARE I SAY THAT WITH THE SLIGHTEST SIGN OF ANY CALAMITY AND DISASTER, MAN-MADE OR OTHERWISE, THE FIRST TO FLEE WILL BE THE ELITES, BE THEY RULER, WEALTHY OR JUST ORDINARY FOLKS. THERE WILL BE MAD SCRAMBLE TO FLEE.
WHAT NATIONHOOD OR NATIONAL DEFENSE ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
patriot
I'm laughing at your ludricous claim that China is purely defensive or that they're anymore benign compared to the Americans or indeed any other great power.
Specfically, I was surprised that you've bought into the propaganda that China never attacked any other nation, especially South East Asian ones. Vietnam alone was conqured and occupied three times, each occupation lasting decades to centuries and each time, they left only after they were evicted forcefully by the Vietnamese. The USA on the other hand had exactly ONE colony in South East Asia and they won that in a war with Spain, the former colonial power.
Unlike China's occupation of her neighbours, the colonization faced vehement opposition in the USA and by the 1930s a Filipino Congress was already set up, with a date for formal independence being negotiated.
I've listed an East Asian nation, Central Asian nation and to round it up also showed a South East Asian nation. For you to claim that Vietnam isn't South East Asian is as laughable as claiming that Hungary and Poland are not European because they only joined the EU after the Cold War.
Also, if you believe that the drastic depopulation of the Native American peoples were due to the arrival of European settlers in the 15th and 16th centuries, maybe this will enlighten you.
http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html.
While the white settlers did attack the Natives, they're not anymore effective or deadly than their own neighbours who waged constant wars on each other, as nomadic and settled tribes were wont't to do. The lack of domesticated farm animals however, meant most Native American tribes never got the immunity from smallpox and other livestock borne diseases.
At Anon,
Actually, Hitler himself was quoted as saying he admired the systematic way the Turks butchered the Aremanians during and after World War I
"American way of peace is to terminate the opposition, like the Red Indians, then ruled the leftovers with mercy and human rights, like putting them in the reservation to be protected in case they become extinct."
So the Americans wait until disease kills off most of their opposition, then actively seek to preserve the culture and dignity of their defeated enemies Most of their enemies or the British they replaced won't be quite as gracious in victory. Certainly not the Chinese, who's MO for defeated nations is thorough Sinicization.
In the first place America was colonised by the Europeans. In the second place, California, Texas, and all the states in southern USA belonged to Mexico. They were grabbed by the US.
Wherever the Americans go, they stayed unless evicted.
The ancient history of China and Vietnam were normal behaviour of those times. Recent history when China was provoked by the Vietnamese, it could stayed in North Vietnam after chasing the Vietnamese back. But it pulled out voluntarily. It was so easy for the Chinese to stay and the Vietnamese could not do anything about it. One province of Yunnan has more people than the whole of Vietnam and could tie down the Vietnamese till kingdom comes.
Today, the Chinese has not been encroaching into anyone's territory but it is pesky countries that tried to claim Chinese territories that needed to be whacked. Vietnam and the Philippines are two that think hiding behind the Americans they could do mischiefs and seize Chinese territories.
Fat hope.
In the first place, all continents outside of Africa were colonised by homo sapiens at the end of the Ice Age. In the first place, modern China was colonised by the small tribes on the banks of the Yellow River who eventually formed the Han Peoples.
Yes, blame America for winning a war that Mexico started by attacking the border forts. Mexico lost that war so badly they address Uncle Sam exclusively by Daddy and when the US says bend over, Mexico replies how wide.
Japan, Germany and the Philipines says otherwise. Matter of fact, they returned to the Philipines to clean up and then left as they had intended to in the first place. If only China was as polite a houseguest.
Provoked by the Vietnamese? You mean how China went to war over Cambodia after Vietnam removed the Khmer Rouge over the repeated shellings and raids on the part of the Cambodian side.
Population of Yunnan.
45,966,239
Population of Vietnam
91,519,289
Leaving your erronous population calculations aside, the Chinese have already been forcefully evicted three times, once by an army of WOMEN- an event that the Chinese rather not talk about, but widely celebrated in Vietnam.
Fun fact, China during those times enjoyed a far superior qualitative and numerical advantage compared to now.
Also another fact that the Chinese rather not talk about. After the fiasco that was the border war in 79 where they lost 20000 KIA and some 400 tanks with nothing to show for it, Vietnam continued their occupation till 1989.
So yeah, they did voluntarily leave because they realised they were being mauled by Vietnamese irregulars and that escalation of the War by invading Hanoi would risk Soviet intervention.
Credits for knowing when to fold them.
Check out the Trung Sisters.
If sailing and having named islands are basis for claming waters as your national waters, then Spain which named the entire Pacific and Atlantic Ocean would have the largest sea map in the world,dwarfing that of the British Empire.
A stronger claim to sovereignity is occupation and administration, which China belatedly learnt about in the 70s when they ejected Vietnam from half of the Spratlys. However, most of the other shoals and islands there are occupied and effectively islands of the other claimmants.
If China did go to war over the South China Sea, they're going to see why it's a bad idea to have 80% of your oil pass through the Straits of Malacca and you lack an effective blue water navy.
Thank you JayF, for correcting me on the Yunnan population. It was just after the 79 war that Deng Xiaoping told the Vietnamese that China could sacrifice two provinces, Yunnan and Kwangsi to deal with Vietnam, both together had a population the size of Vietnam. I missed out on Kwangsi in my earlier comment.
And that would have bogged down Vietnam forever while the rest of China could go on developing.
I am not sure what did the Vietnamese occupied till 1989 that you mentioned. What was very certain is that after that whacking by China, of course the US and Vietnam would gloat that the Viets gave China a lesson, Vietnam had since been a very good boy at the borders. No more gungho border skirmishes. That would tell who were taught a lesson. The same scenario happened at the Sino Indian border in 1962.
As for the occupation of the islands in the South China Seas, if first finder has no right to ownership, what else, physical occupation? What would happen is that the Chinese would just do that and see whether Vietnam and the Philippines with the US backing can do anything about it. They could do that a few years ago. Now they can and would do it.
Ya, Aquino is now in the US conferring with the Emperor on how to take those islands from the Chinese. Maybe America would give him a couple more of second world war ships that are due for the museum to take on the Chinese.
Vietnam would have to work harder to prove its mettle if it wants to take more islands from the Chinese. This time the Trung Sisters would not be there to help.
*Most of their enemies or the British they replaced won't be quite as gracious in victory. Certainly not the Chinese, who's MO for defeated nations is thorough Sinicization*
i say rb,
just the other day
we had anon brathering about the *amerika + humanrights* oxymoron
now we've jay gushing about amerika the *gracious victor* [sic]
makes one wonder
are they smoking some damned good stuff ?
jay
*Most of their enemies or the British they replaced won't be quite as gracious in victory. Certainly not the Chinese, who's MO for defeated nations is thorough Sinicization*
i say rb,
just the other day
we had anon brathering about the *amerika + humanrights* oxymoron
now we've jay gushing about amerika the *gracious victor* [sic]
makes one wonder
are they smoking some damned good stuff ?
Hi denk,
Everyone looks at the world differently, depending on their diet.
rb
*Everyone looks at the world differently, depending on their diet*
but if two person hold completely opposite view, they cant be both right ....
ole charley reese
*this is despicable*
http://tinyurl.com/y9lkstf
jay [angmoh dua ki ?]
*america is the epitome of graceciousness in victory*
one of them must be eating some very funny diet ;-)
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Southernglory1
Dear Chua,
I'd like to see how China would have developed their economy under the circumstances that would be needed for a continued military occupation of Vietnam.
But first, I was shocked you have no idea of the continued Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia. This was the ultimate reason China went to war, because Vietnam had removed the Khmer Rogue who were very much pro-China rather than pro-Soviet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia_under_Vietnamese_occupation_%281979-1989%29
A question. If Vietnam had learned their lesson, why the continued occupation until the end of the Cold War and why this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_border_raids_in_Thailand
1) The continued deployment of close to 1 and half million troops in the vast Sino-Soviet border. The first thing Deng did before he went to war was to inform the Soviets that they were prepared for total war in the scenario of Soviet intervention.
Not the withstanding the material costs of a million and a half men of productive economic age, the opportunity costs of such a large military force on war footing with a beligrent superpower would deprive China of VERY crucial manpower at the time when they're most needed in the econmic reformation.
2) The opening up of China and the subsequent reformation would not have happened in the first place. A successful invasion and occupation of Vietnam would have validated the people's war doctrine an strengthened the PLA hardliners as well as remannants of the Red Guard who never stopped harbouring ambithions of aborting Deng's planned reforms.
As it turned out, the fiasco that was the 79 war invalidated the people's war doctrine as outdated in the face of a modern, battle-hardened enemy. Losing 10% of the initial fighting force and 1/3 of your armour is NOT an acceptable outcome for any modern army faced off with a foe a quarter of your size.
China learnt a very important lesson on the need to spur modernisation of their armies, almost as much the later 1991 Gulf War would do so. A successful occupation would have delayed the needed reforms much later.
3) A continued Chinese occupation in Vietnam, and going by their last three entanglements with the Viets it's not going to be any less bloody, would mean a prolonged Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, perhaps even an ultimate Soviet victory. Pakistan dared to lie in the face of the Soviets about their aid to the Afghan mujahadin partially because of American assurance of retaliation and combined Saudi-American financial aid, but partially because China was openly training the muj and providing durable copies of Soviet weapons. A continued violent insurgency in Vietnam and a Sino Soviet border on the brink of war would make the outcome very different-and ultimately very unwelcome for the Chinese. A resurgent Soviet Union with direct access to the Middle East means that their northen border will remain in peril for decades to come.
4) A month of war had cost China some 3.4 billion yuan in costs and this was before they engaged any serious VPA regular resistance armed with the latest Soviet and Vietnam war-era American tech. Add the 20k KIA and you're looking at an occupation that wil resemble the aftermath of the Great Leap forward.
So pray tell, with a bloody insurgency grinding up lives and material south, and the Soviets glowering on the north with the Northeast and Beijing within striking range- however would Deng and the Communist party feel secure enough to embark on their reformation.
As for the South China Sea, you've just answered your question, though your proposed Chinese solution is exactly the path that all parties-including the Chinese- want to avoid the most.
China knows there's alot of things America can do should China decides sod it and move to forcibly occupy the entire South China Sea. All of them will hurt America as well but China is the one with potentially hostile/ unreliable neighbours surrouding them and left with some 200 million enraged young men with no job, wife or land.
The PRC will have no choice but to engage in all out militarism since the other option is to have crowds numbering in the hundreds of thousands demanding things they can't provide now with all their neighbours relations poisoned.
Fortunately, the Chinese are content to limit themselves to sending coast guard ships in disputed waters while making diplomatic noises.
Big powers tend to assume the worst before engaging in any significant movements, knowing how events can take a life of their own. Maybe you'd like to do the same.
The Philipines don't need to go to the US. They already occupy some islands of their own, and realistically know they have no chance of claiming Scarabough Shoal especially with China attempting to build an airfield there.
Hi denk,
If you want to know who's the one in the wrong here, look in a mirror.
And take off the tin foil hat. You're not for important enough for the CIA, the Illuminati or the Lizardmen to come after you
jay
*Hi denk,
If you want to know who's the one in the wrong here, look in a mirror.*
ur sense of right or wrong is very warped, n thats being polite !
viz
jay
*Most of their enemies or the British they replaced won't be quite as gracious [sic] in victory. Certainly not the Chinese, who's MO for defeated nations is thorough Sinicization*
i've already shown u how amerika *pacify* the vanquished in vietnam, philippines, indonesia etc n beyond, ever heard about the fire bombing of tokyo, hiroshima, nakasaki ?
here's another classic amerikan *graceciousness* in all its gory details
read it n weep
if there's any justice in this world , lots of gringos ought to be hauled to a world court for this alone
http://tinyurl.com/78rxltz
otoh,
when china was conquered by the qings, mongolians etc
the victors perpetrated genocides on the hans, especially in places
where they suffered great loss due to stiff resistance from the
defenders
when the hans turned the tables on the invaders, they didnt instigate any revenge on the defeated .
thru out chinese history, the hans never once paid back the atrocities heaped on them by the invaders when they got the upper hand.
none, zero, nada, zilch
the invaders are allowed to go home or stay
after the 1962 indo china war,
china accorded the indian pow vip treatment, sent them back with all
captured weapons oiled n cleaned !
this is unique in all mankinds history
whereas india incarcerated its chinese citizens into concentration camps
much like what the gringos did to their jap citizens during ww2
do u know that
tibetens dont pay tax
their economy, education, are heavily subsidised by the central
government
all minorities in china are exempted from the one child rule, which applies to the hans only
so u see
the chinese beat the democrazies, especially ur idols the gringos ,
hands down in their magnificent magnanimity
u've been turning fact on its head buddy
*And take off the tin foil hat. You're not for important enough for the CIA, the Illuminati or the Lizardmen to come after you*
huh ????
u're really smoking something good
Hi denk,
Firstly, learn to spell. Makes it easier to read what you're typing. There's something called spellcheck if you're that illiterate.
What you did show me was a badly written article with zero links to sources and ad homien. Maybe you can show me a credible source?
Firstly, the Ming victory over the Mongols at the end of the Yuan dynasty.
To say that the Ming never inflicted reprisals on defeated Mongol civilians is to misunderstand the nature of Mongol society, or the full extent of the Mongol Empire.
After a series of defeats and the unification of Chinese rebel factions by Zhu, the Yuan abandoned the Mongol capitol and it became Beiping, later day Beijing. Mongols were nomadic and the term civilian was not applicable to a people where everyone of fighting age was expected to be able to fight. Every Chinese Han army lacked the need horses and support to maintain a large standing calvary force and the Ming knew that chasing them into the desert was a dead end.
As for the Manchu.
In 1911 Xinhai revolutionaries proclaimed that Han and Muslims were equal, but deliberately left out the Manchus in the original proclamation, and thus "can be seen as sanctioning" the massacre of Manchus in Xi'an.[3]
^ Edward J. M. Rhoads (2001). Manchus & Han: Ethnic Relations and Political Power in Late Qing and Early Republican China, 1861-1928. University of Washington Press. p. 191. ISBN 0-295-98040-0. Retrieved 2010-06-28.
Taiping massacare of the Manchus upon capturing Nanjing.
http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=54
62 Sino-Indian War
And India continues to effectively rule Sikkim which China claims as part of Tibet.
Hiroshima-Nagasaki and Tokyo was during the war, not after the Japanese laid down their arms. Lucky Japs- had the Soviets invaded as planned they'd have a taste of the Korean experience.
As for the rest-blah,blah, blah. Irrelevant.
As for the last part.
Apologiese. should have realised using big words and sarcasm would fly right over your under-educated head.
By the way, here's the definition of sarcasm.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm
Matilah jumping in:
@denk:
I wouldn't trust an idiot like John Pilger with telling me what the time is. Oh my, did I just make an ad hominem?
Here in Australia, we've been putting up with his rubbish for decades. Everything the Yanks or the Brits is automatically "imperialistic" in Pilger's world view. That is not to say that he doesn't make valid points -- he does. But he always never fails to couch them is some nebulous agenda of "world domination" to please his conspiracy theory fan base.
However he is absolutely fine and takes full advantage of the personal liberties and freedom of speech and expression afforded to him by the places he lives, writes and makes his films in. i.e. NO CENSORSHIP, because those places won the brutal wars which threatened those very freedoms.
Regardless of politicians lies (as they do), many people died so that their way of lives were secured.
If not for the unfortunate and horrific bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we might all be speaking Japanese now. Who knows? Slippery slope argument? Perhaps.
I am halfway through James Gleick's wonderful biography: "Genius: The Life and Science of Richard Feynman" in which he (Gleick) meticulously recounts the events of the Manhattan Project where Feynman played a dominant role. The brain trust of the Manhattan Project read like the who's who of physics "rock stars", with the exception of course of people like Einstein -- who had issues with morality. And the other scientists knew full well what ramifications of an atomic bomb and chose to go ahead, but there was a mutual respect between the project team and Einstein for their personal choices.
IMO, the America's nuclear attack on Japan was necessary and a godsend. It is unfortunate that civilians were killed. However, think what you like, in war, ideas like "human rights" or "every individual is special" goes out the window, to be replaced by military strategy, numbers, maths, strategic advantage, maximum impact...and whatever else it take to "win" or limit losses.
Regardless of the flack I'll cop by saying this: By dropping those bombs, America saved the world.
@denk
1) Put bluntly, the "victory" for the Chinese was hollow. The end of the skirmish left things as status quo and all China got out of it was some good press and another of India's many crisis of government. Tokenism is hardly an example of typical Chinese behaviour.
2) Looks like you know about zero things of Mongol society other than what you watch on TV or Jin Yong novels.
Here are some sources on Mongol society.
http://history-world.org/mongol_empire.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Mongol_Empire
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/history/yuan/four-class-system.htm
Also, the Yuan was but a chunk of the massive Mongol Empire. The Golden Horde in Russia lasted till the beginings of the Manchu Qing, while the Mughal Empire-Mongols turned Muslim lasted- till the East India Company brought the modern world.
Mongol administration, true to their nomadic roots, were pretty much under the care of their conqurered peoples. The Mongols were pragmatic rulers and held no prejeduice or race, religion or culture since the nature of their society precludes that. They believe that Mongols are superior due to their military might, but they hold no illusions of Mongol cultural or religious superiority. The term civies, which implies people unfamiliar with the wild or the ability to be mobile as soldiers did not exist in Mongol society. The Yuan took great pains to maintain their distinction with the settled Han and this includes the preservation of the highly militaristic, nomadic culture.
So if you're asking if the last Yuan Emperor pretty much abandoned Dadu and upped sticks to the north, yes.
Find me a source that said the Yuan mounted a defence of their erstwhile capitol.
Also, the Yuan were in China for a hundred years, and they continued waging war rather effectively upon the Ming until the rise of the Qing, who finally absorbed the Mongols into the Banner system.
Don't believe me? See below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumu_Crisis
Maybe you're confusing the Qing with the Mongols.
I've got a source on how the Taiping butchered the Manchu population when taking Nanjing. You have a source that denies this?
I wasn't using any big words. I was using words that a reasonably educated adult should be able to comprehend.
And spelling. Good spelling and puncuation means people can read and understand your arguement without having to resort to an English-halfwit dictionary.
Joke? Heavens no. I was just mocking you. As long as I can laugh at your ignorance, the purpose is met.
Also, text speak is NOT a replacement for proper spelling. You have a keyboard. Use it.
And look, you've used a quote! See, if you just try hard enough, you can also write simple coherent English on a comprenshible standard fit for adults.
I wanted to believe you know, thinking maybe you somehow managed to get an authoritative source for once. Instead you linked me to a commentary on a no name newspaper.
A crying shame.
it's a crying shame
old-fashioned
Definition
something that you say when you think a situation is wrong
It's a crying shame that she's paid so little for what she does.
(Definition of it's a crying shame from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)
Just in case, you know, you don't get this one as well. Anymore and I have to charge you tuition.
ml
*I wouldn't trust an idiot like John Pilger.....
IMO, the America's nuclear attack on Japan was necessary *
dont kill the messenger
n ur imo is irrelevant
here's right outta horse mouth
u cant be more authentic than that
"Even without the atomic bombing attacks," concluded the United States Strategic Bombing Survey of 1946, "air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion. Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that ... Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."
The National Archives in Washington contain US government documents that chart Japanese peace overtures as early as 1943. None was pursued. A cable sent on May 5, 1945 by the German ambassador in Tokyo and intercepted by the US dispels any doubt that the Japanese were desperate to sue for peace, including "capitulation even if the terms were hard". Instead, the US secretary of war, Henry Stimson, told President Truman he was "fearful" that the US air force would have Japan so "bombed out" that the new weapon would not be able "to show its strength". He later admitted that "no effort was made, and none was seriously considered, to achieve surrender merely in order not to have to use the bomb". His foreign policy colleagues were eager "to browbeat the Russians with the bomb held rather ostentatiously on our hip". General Leslie Groves, director of the Manhattan Project that made the bomb, testified: "There was never any illusion on my part that Russia was our enemy, and that the project was conducted on that basis." The day after Hiroshima was obliterated, President Truman voiced his satisfaction with the "overwhelming success" of "the experiment".
http://tinyurl.com/5nkf7x
jay
*1) Put bluntly, the "victory" for the Chinese was hollow*
its not as if i have been bragging about china's triumph
i was just giving u another example where china was gracious in victory
u just keep changing subject eh ?
naughty u
*So if you're asking if the last Yuan Emperor pretty much abandoned Dadu and upped sticks to the north, yes*
trouble is
if the hans had been bent on exacting revenge
they could've rounded up a large no of mongols all over china
b4 they hightailed bk to their motherland
not hard to figure out innit ?
*Don't believe me? See below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumu_Crisis*
dont rely too much on that wiki thingee ;-)
it ought to carry some kind of health warning on their site,
http://tinyurl.com/7kkzsf2
i mean, how do i know if u had just sneaked in a couple of entries ?
*I wasn't using any big words*
as per ur own post
check it out
*And spelling. Good spelling and puncuation means people can read and understand your arguement without having to resort to an English-halfwit dictionary*
wrong
a coherent argument written in txt or broken english is still comprehensible ,
incoherent rambling written in queens english is still garbage ;-)
listen to this wise one
+nitpicking on spelling is the last refuge for someone losing an argument+
*I wanted to believe you know, thinking maybe you somehow managed to get an authoritative source for once. Instead you linked me to a commentary on a no name newspaper*
which link ?
*Joke? Heavens no. I was just mocking you. As long as I can laugh at your ignorance, the purpose is met*
u r so *ah q*
if u know qing yong, u know ah q i presume ?
anyway
u seem more interested in ad homein attack
than actual debate
+a crying shame+
btw u havent answered [5], [6] in my pevious post
no fair if i answer all urs
but u keep evading mine ?
n btw
since u mentioned sikkim
just to give u another history 101
sikkim is another ill gotten booty, besides the 7 sisters
http://tinyurl.com/22s4376
unlike ur cherished wiki
this is the real deal
best of all, no charge !
yet another example of magnanimity in victory ;-)
Wow, two of your have made so many posts while I was not peeping in.
JayF, I would not claim to know very much about Indochina. But I can assure you that you do not know how much I know: ) Incidentally my honours AE was on the Indochina Federation. I was also involved with the refugees flooding SE Asia after 1975. I have visited Kampuchea and watched them in close range.
The public image of China has always been painted by the western media, that they were uncouth peasants. I have written about how good they were as fighting soldiers, routing the American marines and making them looked like amateurs.
The western media diet on the superiority and righteousness of the Americans and the west and the demons they made of China is legendary as most Asians and Africans reading these media have been fully convinced with this kind of views.
Hi RB
Talking about Indo-China refugees really piss me off. Back in middle to late 1970s, we heard talk cock king LKY selling snake oil to everyone about the reasons Singaporeans must not take in Indo-China refugees. His usual excuses are Singapore is too small and we have too much people. And we have wicked monster like Teo Chee Hean in the fucking navy, who are then involving in towling the boats of Nam-ese to open sea when they were closed to Singapore.Many died in rough sea or being killed and rape by pirates as a result.
Teo Chee Hean is a murderer with blood in both hands.
Fucking Straits Times also obscure the fact that most these Nam-ese and Cambodian are -- ethnic Chinese from Fujian, Teocheow, Guangdong. In short, they are our brothers. How can we did that to our brothers? And in the same time, fucking Kuan Yew import voraciously FT from Malaysia to Thailand (Thai built our older HDBs).
These Nam-ese could be naturalize and put into meaningful work like construction workers then.
These Nam-ese are far from stupid, in fact they are clever like everyone of us. Many of those who make it to USA, are now proving themselves far better than Singaporeans in achievements. (Not that Sinkies are stupid, but peranakan PAP deprives every opportunities to Sinkies)
Damn ironically, LKY are now importing northern Chinese and northern Indians like nobody. These folks has very little in common with us.
LKY you chee bye, you go to hell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ha94Xz59dg
Suicide Bomber Auction for Syria in Saudi Arabia
Comment: US and Saudi Muslims must pay a price for
auctioning children to be suicide bombers in Syria.
An unbelievable leaked video of an auction for a suicide bomber against Syria!
This takes place in a hotel conference room in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
The atmosphere is festive, and the audience has children in it. But the
merchandise auctioned is human flesh and blood!
The video shows the father, Abu-Salah, attending the auction and offering
his son Khaled as a sacrifice This is his SECOND son to be sold as a
suicide bomber. The father receives 1.5 million Riyals ($400,000)
as future compensation for his son's demise in Syria. At one point in the video,
the father is elated at the high bids.
What kind of father sells his son? What kind of person pays to have a
stranger blow himself up? These are questions that Saudi Arabia,
Gulf Arab states, Obama, Hillary Clinton and Europeans must answer
because of their support of these terrorists in Syria.
Southernglory1
denk,
"its not as if i have been bragging about china's triumph
i was just giving u another example where china was gracious in victory
u just keep changing subject eh ?
naughty u"
You were citing an example that China was gracious in victory. I was simply pointing out that the victory was hollow and also claimed that it was an atypical example of typical Chinese behaviour post hostilities. Burning down northern Vietnam in 79 as they retreated was hardly gracious behaviour.
"trouble is
if the hans had been bent on exacting revenge
they could've rounded up a large no of mongols all over china
b4 they hightailed bk to their motherland
not hard to figure out innit ?"
Before anything, you've yet to cite a source that disproved the currently accepted historic fact that the Yuan did not mount a defense of their capitol and instead moved the entire court north into the desert.
Firstly, there was no large numbers of Mongols for them to round up in the first place. The Mongols were severly outnumbered and since they never settled into settled conclaves like the latter Manchus as a matter of policy, there were no Mongol quarter for the Han to butcher upon capturing a city, unlike what the Taiping did upon capturing Nanjing.
Secondly,the only Mongol non-full time combatants would be the immediate families of the local Mongol commander and top bureacrats. Mid-level and low level bureacrats were mostly Semu and Han, with the local infantry garrison predominatly Han Chinese. Most Mongols not serving in the armies within China proper would be burecrats of nobility who would be highly mobile and protected by the Mongol calvary allowing them sufficient time to escape.
Lastly, while Zhu Yuanzhang did some initial fighting with the Mongols, his fiercest battles were with rival Han Chinese warlords like Chen Youliang. It is a tragedy of Chinese history that until the Europeans and Japanese came along, the ones who killed the most Chinese were other Chinese. Not that it took Mao too long to catch up with the records set by Japan and the Western powers.
"dont rely too much on that wiki thingee ;-)
it ought to carry some kind of health warning on their site,
http://tinyurl.com/7kkzsf2
i mean, how do i know if u had just sneaked in a couple of entries ?"
So to disprove a Wikipedia article citing numerous reliable sources, you linked me to a website with absolutely ZERO citations there and no expertise behind their assertations.
The Tumu Crisis article and the Timur article both cites multiple historical sources both authoritative and from experts. Challenge the cited sources if you're able before shooting off about how unreliable it is when you gave me a no-authority-no citation website to back you up.
And you're using emoticons. Good God, not even pre-teen girls use them anymore. The only ones who still do are pedophiles who are outdated and police posing as pre-teen girls.
Doubt you're a cop, or at the very least one who's any good.
"as per ur own post
check it out "
So you define big words as anything that requires a basic secondary school education to understand?
Everytime I think you've set abysmally low standards lingiustically, you break out a spade and start digging.
"
wrong
a coherent argument written in txt or broken english is still comprehensible ,
incoherent rambling written in queens english is still garbage ;-)"
So you submit arguements in court, business proposals with txt or broken English? Broken English is by definition incomprehensible to a purely English speaker because the English is well, broken. As in defective, which I am sure you're most familiar with.
If the rambling is incoherent, then by definition it is not the Queen's. Though you've been linking me to plenty of the above example, so I can understand why you'd be confused.
You know, if you knew as much as you got wrong, you'd be a genius. As it stands, you're just plain ignorant. But you're entertaining so I'll continue to belittle you some more.
"listen to this wise one
+nitpicking on spelling is the last refuge for someone losing an argument+"
It's not nitpicking when you're engaged in wanton cruelty to the common comma.
"which link ?"
Try all of them.
"u r so *ah q*
if u know qing yong, u know ah q i presume ?
anyway
u seem more interested in ad homein attack
than actual debate "
Ah yes, the Story of Ah Q. It must read like an autobiography to you doesn't it.
If someone wrote a book that so closely mirrors my life decades before I was born, I would wander if time travel was possible.
Also, please don't flatter yourself. Debate implies you've made any points and have cited any facts or figures to back your assertions. As it is, your assertions are backed by...more assertions.
"u calling me a conspiracy theorist
now show me the *conpiracies !!"
All that you've linked to me so far. Never saw so much crazy on my screen before and I watch Alex Jones and Glenn Beck for comedy purposes.
"these means nothing to u ?
http://tinyurl.com/y9lkstf
http://tinyurl.com/y9lkstf
or may be its what u called *conspiracies* ?
u still clinging to the fantasy of ur *gracious* amerika ?"
Basically, yes it means nothing to me since the guy writing it is not an expert and he cited no sources.
So tell me, in your version of reality, what happened to Japan, post war West Germany and Italy instead of turning into functioning, prosperous (not much for Italy) democracies after the fighting was over? So far, you've attacked the American record during the fighting, but left out how the countries prospered and rebuilt under a Pax Americana.
ah, jay is besottled with *experts* opinion
is an expert team commissioned by harward good enuff for u ?
+Eric Hoskins, a Canadian doctor and Coordinator of a Harvard study
team on Iraq, observed that the Gulf War bombing campaign “effectively terminated everything vital to human survival in Iraq - electricity, water, sewage systems, agriculture, industry, health care. Food, warehouses, hospitals and markets were bombed. Power stations were repeatedly attacked until electricity supplies were at only 4 per cent of prewar levels.” (New Statesman, 17 January 1992) Hoskin’s team of experts further recorded that: “The children strive to understand what they saw:
planes bombing, houses collapsing, soldiers fighting, blood,mutilated
and crushed bodies. The children fight to forget what they heard: people screaming, desperate voices, planes, explosions, crying people. They are haunted by the smell of gunfire, fires and burned flesh.” (The Guardian, 23 October 1991)+
punishing the iraqis civilians to effect a regime change...
from the horse mouth,
+The real objectives of the sanctions were admitted by U.S. Deputy National Security Adviser Robert M. Gates in May 1991: “Saddam is discredited and cannot be redeemed. His leadership will never be accepted by the world community. Therefore, Iraqis will pay the price while he remains in power. All possible sanctions will be maintained until
he is gone... Any easing of sanctions will be considered only when there is a new government.” (Los Angeles Times, 9 May 1991)+
+the World Health Organization (WHO) observed in March 1996: “Since the onset of sanctions, there has been a six-fold increase in the mortality rate for children under five and the majority of the country’s population has been on a semi-starvation diet.” The UN Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) reported in 1997: “Famine threatens four million people in sanctions-hit Iraq - one fifth of the population - following a poor
grain harvest... The human situation is deteriorating. Living conditions are precarious and are at pre-famine level for at least four million people...
The deterioration in nutritional status of children is reflected in the significant increase of child mortality, which has risen nearly fivefold since 1990+
u hate pilger too, jay ?
+An internal UN Security Sector report for a single five-month period records that: “41 per cent of victims of the bombing were civilians in civilian targets: villages, fishing jetties, farmland and vast, treeless valleys where sheep graze.” British journalist John Pilger remarks on one particular incident when: “A shepherd, his father, his four children and his sheep were killed by a British or American aircraft, which made two passes at them.” A single year of this bombing campaign against the Iraqi people has “cost the British taxpayer £60 million.” (The Guardian, 4 March 2000)
see, the sobs made 2 passess b4 unleashing their deadly cargoes, they knew what they were bombing
http://tinyurl.com/7zpcjk9
hello rb
yes
the crimes of fukus have long been well documented
but the oh so knowledgeable jay says he hasnt heard about it ;-)
5 min is all i take to uncover tons of inrefutable evidence
That's normal. He only reads western media and western/American crimes would not be reported.
Chua,
"JayF, I would not claim to know very much about Indochina. But I can assure you that you do not know how much I know: ) Incidentally my honours AE was on the Indochina Federation. I was also involved with the refugees flooding SE Asia after 1975. I have visited Kampuchea and watched them in close range."
What you do know is irrelevant since though throughout this discussion most of what you've claimed turned out to be blatantly false(population, China never attacking a SE Asian nation before.) or ignorant. (Claiming Vietnam provoked China while failing to realise that Cambodia engaged in hostiilities first, triggering a war with China.)
Your experience with the refugees may give you background and authority of the plight of the refugees, but to use that to claim expertise in the history and behaviour of great power politics and displaying some appalling lack of basic knowledge is simply embarrassing.
"The public image of China has always been painted by the western media, that they were uncouth peasants. I have written about how good they were as fighting soldiers, routing the American marines and making them looked like amateurs.
The western media diet on the superiority and righteousness of the Americans and the west and the demons they made of China is legendary as most Asians and Africans reading these media have been fully convinced with this kind of views."
The potrayal of Chinese as uncouth bumpkins are at least 60 years out of date. Even the 1930s, Mdm Chiang of the Soong sisters famed wowed American high society with her grace and presence, generating much good will towards China in the war against Japan. While some second rate media may still follow such outdated tropes, most of the media giants have long embraced China as a modern, sophisticated and authoritarian society.
Get with the programme.
"The Americans have committed so many war crimes and crimes against humanity that nothing can hide them anymore. The Western media have tried very hard to glamourise their evil deeds and con the world of how benevolent the Americans were.
The Americans will have to pay the price for the crimes they have committed. They cannot hide or run anymore."
The same Western media that exposed such atrocities in the first place? Seriously?
"The Americans will have to pay the price for the crimes they have committed. They cannot hide or run anymore."
Run and hide from whom? The Chinese who locked up our ST journalist Chin Cheong on trumped up charges of spying when he wrote a book on Tiananmen. The irony of it is that Mr Chin was one of the more pro-China journos around.
"In modern China, counting the 3 wars they fought post WW@, the Chinese have been the most gracious. History is full of primitism and ancient ruthlessness. Nothing compares with the barbarism of the Americans against the red indians and the negroes, the Nazis against the Jews and the Japanese against the Chinese and Koreans in recent history. Dont forget the atrocities committed in Africa."
I've previously posted a link which states that by the time the Europeans arrived en masse, smallpox had already depopulated the Native American population and in any case, the Native American tribes fought each other as much as they did the European powers. American behaviour to the Natives, while not exampalary by any means, was the norm for the time. At the very least, they behaved better than how the Qing treated their conqured Han population in the begining of their conquest.
Also, America is not an African colonial power. Why are you bringing them in.
"The gracious shown to the defeated Indian Army in 1962 is well documented. In Vietnam, the Chinese could destroy much more but when they did was nothing given the fact that the Vietnamese soldiers would not allow them an easy withdrawal. All said and done, the Vietnamese got to be very thankful that the PLA did not bulldoze their country like what the Americans did with napalm and agent orange and much more."
If by well documented you mean widely publicized by Chinese propaganda then yes, it's widely "documented."
The two accounts from former Indian POWs however present a different story. One's a general, the other was an NCO.
http://www.friendsoftibet.org/databank/general/gen4.html
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-10-06/pune/30250320_1_chinese-border-soldiers-indian-troops.
I've previously pointed out that China at the time of the 79 border war, despite Deng's claims to the contrary, not in any shape or form capable of establishing an occupation of Vietnam. You till now have yet to rebut any of the points I've raised.
The Chinese scroched earth policy was frankly an act of petty revenge after the expected swift victory against a far numerically inferior enemy turned into a bloody fiasco. When the Chinese realised that an all out fight with the bulk of the VPA could turn out more costly than anticipated, they beat a face saving retreat and de-escalated the conflict. A wise choice even if the Vietnamese, true to their warlike nature made the Chinese withdrawal as painful as possible.
Going by your logic, China ought to be grateful that Japan did not extend the Three All policy onto the coastal Chinese cities or depopulate all of Nanjing.
Actually, I can read Chinese media just fine. Xinhua and CCTV got some great documentaries and travel shows. Their news on the other hand bores me to tears. Mostly because they censor out everything worth reading or watching.
denk,
Eric Hoskins,
Blah, blah, blah. Long story short. Saddam decides the Americans were bluffing when they told him to get out of Kuwait so his people who are sadly trapped suffer when the Allies flatten the cities Saddam's armies were hiding in upon realising that the open field became a death threat to their equipment.
It is only a crime to target civilian infrastucture if the military was not also using them. Since the Iraqi army uses the same power grid, water supply though, then they're fair game. If civies are nearby when I bomb a military position, it's not a war crime since they were in a legitimate target. The presence of the military operating there renders any site a legitimate target.
I also noticed you've not been able to bring up a counterpoint to my rebuttals of your claims of Chinese graciousness or how the Han did not exact revenge against the Mongols due to the goodness of their hearts, rather than the unique structure of Mongol society. Nor have you been able to rebut how I've pointed out that the Monogols have not been intergrated into Chinese society at the end of the Yuan, since intergrated Mongols do not tend to defeat large Ming armies or capture Ming emperors.
Still waiting for your rebuttals.
JayF
*it is only a crime to target civilian infrastucture if the military was not also using them. Since the Iraqi army uses the same power grid, water supply though, then they're fair game*
first u dismissed the evidence as not *expert* stuff
now even the experts view doesnt matter anyway
keep shifting the goal post eh ?
heard of the geneva convention ?
+no targeting of civic infrastructure....PERIOD+
may be u just added a clause +except when its shared by the military+ in wiki ?
*. If civies are nearby when I bomb a military position, it's not a war crime since they were in a legitimate target. The presence of the military operating there renders any site a legitimate target.*
whoa, lu bi angmoh lagi hiong
even the lawless gringos dare not utter such hubris
every time they *wasted* civies they apologised n said it was
*accidence* [sic]
coz
+according to Article 50 of the Conventions, "The presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character+
n if u havent been falling over urself in defending the gringos
U'D HAVE NOTICED THAT THEY'VE BEEN DELIBERATELY TARGETING CIVIES , ITS A STRATEGY TO TERRORISE THE POPULACE INTO SUBMISSION
+A "Pentagon official" also told the Times: "If there are civilians dying in connection with these attacks, and with the destruction, the locals at some point have to make a decision. Do they want to harbor the insurgents and suffer the consequences that come with that?"
In other words, terrify the civilian population into cooperating, a strategy that Article 51 explicitly forbids: "Acts or threats of violence, the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population, are prohibited.+
http://tinyurl.com/6u7qwho
did u miss this one in my previous post
or u think those sheeps n their herders are *fair games* too ?
+An internal UN Security Sector report for a single five-month period records that: “41 per cent of victims of the bombing were civilians in civilian targets: villages, fishing jetties, farmland and vast, treeless valleys where sheep graze.” British journalist John Pilger remarks on one particular incident when: “A shepherd, his father, his four children and his sheep were killed by a British or American aircraft, which made two passes at them.” A single year of this bombing campaign against the Iraqi people has “cost the British taxpayer £60 million.” (The Guardian, 4 March 2000)
see, the sobs made 2 passess b4 unleashing their deadly cargoes, they knew what they were bombing
http://tinyurl.com/7zpcjk9
*I also noticed you've not been able to bring up a counterpoint to my rebuttals of your claims of Chinese graciousness or how the Han did not exact revenge against the Mongols due to the goodness of their hearts, rather than the unique structure of Mongol society. Nor have you been able to rebut how I've pointed out that the Monogols have not been intergrated into Chinese society at the end of the Yuan, since intergrated Mongols do not tend to defeat large Ming armies or capture Ming emperors.
Still waiting for your rebuttals.*
man man lai
dont be kiasu
i've done it twice already
U r such a clinger aint u ?
dont worry
ur statisfaction will be gauranteed in due course
1 thing 1
back to work now ;-)
good morning rb
Morning denk. I think JayF is gringo.
hello rb
but he talked like a sinkie
jay
*Run and hide from whom? The Chinese who locked up our ST
journalist Chin Cheong on trumped up charges of spying when he wrote
a book on Tiananmen. The irony of it is that Mr Chin was one of the more pro-China journos around*
i'd be damned if he happens to be a sinkie cop
he'd spray bullets in a crowd in order to nail a suspect
coz anybody who is unlucky to be near a wanted man is considered expendable *collateral damages* by his *logic*
jeeze
My bet, he is a pro paid to do his bit. He is American for sure.
JayF,
The Red Indians got to thank the Europeans to infect them with smallpox as a prelude to their termination with extreme prejudice.
Thank God the Vietnamese were able to expel them from Vietnam or they will suffer the same fate as the Reds. Remember My Lai?
Another characteristic of Americans is that they felt terribly ashamed for being kicked out of Vietnam by the Vietnamese. Thus they like to gloat that China was taught a lesson by the Vietnamese to save some American pride, that the Chinese too were beaten by the Viets.
The truth is that after that painful lessons, the Vietnamese were so well behaved and dare not provoke the Chinese again. Imagine if it was the other way, the Chinese would never have peace at the Sino Viet border as it would have emboldened the Viets to keep hitting the Chinese just like the Philippines. Now that the Chinese have started to kick the arse of the Philippines, everything is peaceful again for the Chinese fishermen in the islands.
"The truth is that after that painful lessons, the Vietnamese were so well behaved and dare not provoke the Chinese again. Imagine if it was the other way, the Chinese would never have peace at the Sino Viet border as it would have emboldened the Viets to keep hitting the Chinese just like the Philippines. Now that the Chinese have started to kick the arse of the Philippines, everything is peaceful again for the Chinese fishermen in the islands."
The Chinese coast guard opened fire on the Philipines? Source. Last I checked, both sides maintained status quo with neither side having effective control. Plenty of sabre rattling, but China's got too much to loose to actually fire a shot.
As for your assertion that the Vietnamese were well behaved, there are two things you ought to remember.
1) The occupation of Cambodia, which was the whole reason that China went to war over. Looks like Vietnam were waving their dicks in the Chinese faces after occupying Cambodia and ejecting the Khmer Rouge and continued to wave said dicks for ten years. Pretty low standards for good behaviour there.
2)Since 1979, there were at least six big rounds of clashes on Sino-Vietnamese border, in June 1980, May 1981, April 1983, April 1984, June 1985 and December 1986-January 1987. According to Western observers, all were initiated or provoked by the Chinese to serve their political objectives.
Shelling of Cao Bang
Since early 1980, Vietnam conducted military operations in the dry season to sweep small Khmer Rouge forces over the Cambodian-Thai border so that they would not be in Vietnamese-occupied Cambodia. To put pressure on Vietnam to withdraw military forces from Cambodia, China created pressure on the Sino-Vietnamese border by deploying troops there. China conducted military training for some 5,000 anti-Laotian H'mong troops in Yunnan Province and used these force to attack Moung Sing in northwest Laos near the Sino-Laostian border.[6] Vietnam responded by increasing forces stationed at the Sino-Vietnamese border, and China no longer had the advantage of forces as they did on their campaign in February 1979. June 1980, Vietnamese troops crossed the Thai-Cambodian border into Thai territory during the pursuit of defeated Khmer Rouge to Thai territory.[5]
Despite rapid Vietnamese withdrawal from Thai territory, the Vietnamese incursion made China feel they must act to support their allied Thailand and the Khmer Rouge. On the days from June 28 to July 6, in addition to outspoken criticism of Vietnam in diplomatic announcements, the Chinese troops continuously shelled Cao Bang Province in northern Vietnam. The Chinese shellings did not aim at any strategic military target at all, nor did these shellings create any substantial damage on Vietnam but was symbolic. Vietnam felt the conduct of military operations on a large scale was beyond the Chinese capabilities, so Vietnam could have a free hand to conduct military operations in Cambodia. However, Chinese shellings shaped the types of conflict on the Sino-Vietnamese border in the next 10 years.
"You posted this and probably believed that the red Indians are dying a natural death and the White Americans were doing them a favour by killing them faster right?
And the Americans did not colonised Africa. Yes you are right. They just made slaves of Africans for a few hundred years.
Do you know who are the Qing? They are Manchus, just like the Vietnamese, another ethnic group of greater China living in the peripheral of China, like the Mongols. As an ethnic group, the Vietnamese are closer to the Han Chinese than the Manchus and Mongols. You can't really tell the difference between the southern Chinese and the Vietnamese."
And when did I ever said the white settlers were doing them a "favour"? I merely pointed out that the Native Americans were already ravaged by smallpox and other livestock borne diseases by the time of the Mayflower and that wars between different Native tribes continued long after the European powers arrived. A number of them even allied themselves when the Europeans brought their wars over to the New World.
Actually, most Americans bought slaves who were already enslaved by other Africans, such as the Berbers who inhabit modern Libya. To be fair, the Berbers also enslaved European sailors until the American Navy bombarded Tripoli under Thomas Jefferson.
If you've bothered to read my many posts, you'd have noticed that I manage to notice a stark difference between the Manchu and Mongols, something denk seems unable to comprehend. Perhaps to his enlightened Greater Chinese mind, all Manyi of the north are the same.
I can assure you that even if you can't tell the difference, the Vietnamese have no problems telling themselves apart from their Chinese "friends". Most of my Viet employees didn't have to listen to me speak before they spotted me as Chinese.
" Thank God the Vietnamese were able to expel them from Vietnam or they will suffer the same fate as the Reds. Remember My Lai?"
I dunno. Japan, Germany, Italy, the Philipines and South Korea seemed pretty well populated to me. Some of them are even in the ranks of the First World nations. Why, some of them even still have the American military around.
denk,
"
first u dismissed the evidence as not *expert* stuff
now even the experts view doesnt matter anyway
keep shifting the goal post eh ?"
You're correct it doesn't matter, since Dr Hoskins never accused the Allies of war crimes in the first Gulf War. He detailed the humanitarian disaster and crisis caused by the war, but he didn't accuse the governments who participated in Op Desert Storm of war crimes.
He is a medical doctor and public health professional, not a legal jurist.
Here's the opinion who actually is an cited expert in the laws and conventions of war, foreign affairs. Colonel Kenneth Rizer.
The experience of WWII led to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, of which Convention IV dealt specifically with the protection of civilians in time of war. Ratified by the US and most countries of the world, Section I, Article 147 of the Convention requires prosecution of those who commit the following "grave breaches" against civilians in time of war: "willful killing," "willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health," and causing "extensive destruction and appropriation of property." Similar to the Hague Conventions’ constraints, however, these restrictions only apply if "not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly."
Several aspects of the Geneva Conventions require comment. One is the use of the word "willful" in regards to killing or causing suffering. In order to violate this article, one must deliberately intend to kill or cause suffering to civilians. In other words, if one really intends to destroy a military target that resides in an urban area, and civilians happen to die or be hurt as a result of poor aiming, mistaken target coordinates, inaccurate bombs, etc., this isn’t technically a violation as it isn’t a willful attack upon the civilians. If the destruction is avoidable however, presumably through better weapon selection, tactics, etc., then the commander could still be held liable under Article 2 of the 1907 Hague Conventions.
"Bombing Dual-Use Targets: Legal, Ethical and Doctrinal Perspectives" through Air and Space Power Chronicles Online Journal
"Article 51 of Additional Protocol I explicitly prohibits targeting objects with the intention of increasing the duress of the civilian population. A broad interpretation of the Article 52(2) definition of a military object, however, can be used to justify coercive bombing so long as the duress experienced by civilians is a secondary consequence to the destruction or neutralization of a military object. As stated by legal scholar Matthew Waxman, “planners sometimes view the dual-use nature of infrastructure systems opportunistically, because military usage arguably legitimizes these systems as targets, even though it may in fact be the incidental effects on the civilian population that planners hope to manipulate.” Thomansen, Kristen "Air Power, Coercion, and Dual-Use Infrastructure: A Legal and Ethical Analysis, International Affairs Review."
Just because an act of war causes civilian duress does not make it a war crime.
"i'd be damned if he happens to be a sinkie cop
he'd spray bullets in a crowd in order to nail a suspect
coz anybody who is unlucky to be near a wanted man is considered expendable *collateral damages* by his *logic*
jeeze"
Looks like someone can't tell the difference between a cop and a soldier.
Soldiers don't have suspects. They have targets and obstacles.
Hi JayF,
In your quotes you honestly stated that they were according to western reports. I am not going to argue the merits or demerits of western reports here. The funny part your western reports mentioned was that the Chinese were firing aimlessly into Vietnam, like fools. They did not know what they were doing, according to your western reports.
History have vindicated that when the PLA set up to deal with the enemies, they got the results they wanted. How could a foolish army firing aimlessly achieved that? See the contradiction?
Vietnam was in pursuit of the Indochina Federation Dream. It wanted to rule over Laos and Cambodia like the French did. The Laotians, Cambodians and the Thais would not allow it and China was brought into the picture.
The Vietnamese were told with no uncertain terms to get out of the two countries or it would have to deal with China. The rest is history.
The PLA soldiers are not softy Marines. They fought to win. They will die for their country.
You mentioned that the Red Indians were infected with small pox when Mayflower arrived? Come on, the small pox came from Europe and the Indians could not have them before Mayflower.
Oh, Japanese, Koreans and Philippines are still kicking around and multiplying. There existed because time changes. And they were not regarded as savages and the whole world was looking at the Americans. They already killed the Indians and got the whole continent of North America, how many continents would they want?
Xin loi : )
hello rb
u r right
he is a sock puppet, prolly several of them
they r all over the internet
their purpose is to provoke [like calling me pedophile]
irritate , disrupt the discussion
some say they r there to lure the *anti amerikan* posters, to map their bio
jay
r u *willfully* blind ?
i've shown enuff evidence to prove that attacking civie structure, even civies, has been pentagoon STRATEGY to terrorise the populace
so thats fine just coz col ritzer says so ?
500000 kids died from the fukus imposed sanction
but mdm mad albright says its *worth it*
extra juicial executions on terrorists *suspects* all over the world is dandy coz obama personally review the hit list
whether u r really chinese or whatever is moot
i dont judge a person by his color but his character
u n the above are birds of the same feather......assholes
i am not gonna waste time with a psychopath
oh one more point b4 u goes to the bozo file
spare me all these legalese craps
if u know anything about international law
u've no biz in iraq or yugo or afghan in the first place
never mind picking on *dual use targets* to bomb
in the nuremberg trial, the germans were charged with
unprovoked aggressions, a *supreme international crime*
which encompass all the other war crimes.
I had one such troll in redbeanforum some times back until we exposed his agenda. He knew his game was up and left.
They have many of paid people doing damages to the Asian African psychic by trying to plant ideas and change their way of thinking. We also had many in Sin in the olden days.
They plant ideas, just like planting ideas about how bad Iran, Myanmar and the North Koreans were. Just heard a UN report that hundreds of thousands are living in abject poverty or in famine conditions in North Korea.
What utter rubbish. But many silly
Afro Asians blindly and unconsciously absorbed them as a matter of fact, like marketing tactics, undermining the thoughts without the victims knowing it.
North Korea, abject poverty, famine.
China, expansionist, dangerous.
This is how they plant ideas to unthinking heads.
Chua,
"In your quotes you honestly stated that they were according to western reports. I am not going to argue the merits or demerits of western reports here. The funny part your western reports mentioned was that the Chinese were firing aimlessly into Vietnam, like fools. They did not know what they were doing, according to your western reports."
It's not like the PLA shelling an area without a specific target in mind is without precedent. In the 1st and 2nd Taiwan Straits Crisis, the PRC continually shelled the islands despite the fact that an invasion was already impossible with the US Navy in the Straits of Taiwan and strategically and tactically it was worthless.
You can purchase a legacy of those days if you're interested.Kinmen knives forged from the shells shot aren't that good, but it's a piece of history.
"History have vindicated that when the PLA set up to deal with the enemies, they got the results they wanted. How could a foolish army firing aimlessly achieved that? See the contradiction?"
Looks like you didn't read what I've posted. The shelling was meant as a show of force to the Vietnamese that they're ready to escalate hostilities and was symbolic. They didn't hit anything, because they weren't supposed to.
Also, the record of the PLA post Civil War isn't that impressive.
Tibet-Successful annexation of region with feudal amount of technology, tiny population and zero foreign support.
金門戰役 Battle of Kinmen- Decisive ROC victory which resulted in defacto independence for Taiwan.
Korean War- stalemate with nothing to show for it other than 400k dead and averting nuclear apocalypse because Truman sacked Macarthur. On the other hand, they showed the world they can actually fight a modern war.
Sino-Soviet border conflict- Zhenbao Island Incident. Several firefights over the Sino Soviet border in Manchuria ended with the Chinese beaten back from Soviet lands and ended in status quo. Border issue not settled until 1991 agreement.
1979-Sino-Vietnamese border conflict- Both sides claim victory with Vietnam continuing occupation of Cambodia and stationing troops in Laos until 1989. PLA undergoes the Fourth modernisation and trims excess troops and restructures the PLA.
Johnson South Reef Skirmish-A much needed victory for the PLAN, which till then had failed to match the acheivements of the other arms of the military. The only undisputed Chinese victory in recent decades.
"Vietnam was in pursuit of the Indochina Federation Dream. It wanted to rule over Laos and Cambodia like the French did. The Laotians, Cambodians and the Thais would not allow it and China was brought into the picture."
And they pretty much lived the dream from 1974 when they invaded Laos until they withdrew troops in 1989. Seriously, do you even read up on the claims you make?
"The Vietnamese were told with no uncertain terms to get out of the two countries or it would have to deal with China. The rest is history."
Annd the Vietnamese promptly told the Chinese to get lost like they did three times before in the past two thousand years or so. They stayed put in Laos and Cambodia for the next decade with Soviet support until the Soviets no longer existed, as history so recorded.
"The PLA soldiers are not softy Marines."
Generally, the PLA soldiers clocked a few hundred hours less training time than the average US Army grunt, much less the punishing regieme of the Marine Corps. The PLA troops, barring a few elite divisions also lack close air support, a combat doctrine formed by almost decades of continued combat or modern body armor. Soft or hard, a bullet or a thousand pierces the human body all the same.
"They fought to win. They will die for their country."
Unless the army is formed of slaves or conscripts who'd surrender to CNN tv crews like the Iraqis in the first Gulf War, I think most professioal armies don't fight to lose.
To quote Patton, wars are won not by dying for your country, but to make the poor SOB die for his.
"You mentioned that the Red Indians were infected with small pox when Mayflower arrived? Come on, the small pox came from Europe and the Indians could not have them before Mayflower."
L'Anse aux Meadows- Viking settlement dated sometime 1000CE Newfoundland, modern Canada
Mayflower at Plymouth-1620
John Cabot lands in North America-1497
Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire, the Mayans and Mexico-1519-1521.
"Oh, Japanese, Koreans and Philippines are still kicking around and multiplying. There existed because time changes. And they were not regarded as savages and the whole world was looking at the Americans. They already killed the Indians and got the whole continent of North America, how many continents would they want?"
So with most media sympathatic to the Vietnamese, had the Americans won, they'd genocide the Vietnamese like you'd said they would if the Americans won?
Contradiction much?
"They plant ideas, just like planting ideas about how bad Iran, Myanmar and the North Koreans were. Just heard a UN report that hundreds of thousands are living in abject poverty or in famine conditions in North Korea.
What utter rubbish."
So you trust the NK who claims, among other things Kim Jong ill scored a hole in one three times and that N.Korea beat Portugal after killing the live broadcast when it became clear Portugal was about to mince the N-Koreans over the World Food Programme?
http://www.wfp.org/node/3498/2672/257713
Seriously? If not for your other posts, I'd think you're doing satire.
Dear denk,
"
u r right
he is a sock puppet, prolly several of them
they r all over the internet
their purpose is to provoke [like calling me pedophile]
irritate , disrupt the discussion
some say they r there to lure the *anti amerikan* posters, to map their bio"
Well if you wanted an example of conspiracy theories, here's one right here. If I could get paid to punch holes in your logic while having a laugh at your expense, I'd gladly sign up.
Sadly, it's nice work but I can't find it.
Please don't ever sober up or come into the real world? The world needs people like you to brighten up our days from dealing with real problems.
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to inform my CIA paymasters the coordinates of some brown people having a wedding party so that the drones can bomb them, spread some airborne Aids into an African American community and spread more vile propaganda of the insidious yellow peril through the Jewish control mainstream media.
Love,
JayF
hello rb
if u r interviewing a job applicant or sizing up a potential son in law
this is a very good litmus test
Capt jerks ·
+US foreign policy is so obviously deranged that I actually use it to judge people by now. If you are unable to see that there is nothing defensive about US foreign policy I assume there is something wrong with that person- as in they might be slight sociopaths or something. Anyone of any decent normal level of emotion, empathy, and intelligence should see this. If they don't - I keep my distance. +
http://tinyurl.com/7cf6ts3
hmmm
something thrashing in that bozo bin
sigh
so poor thing
i gave her such a good time
she is missing this dirty old man
such a clinger
JayF, Go read the Korean War and how the Americans were driven by the PLA from the Yalu River to the 38th parallel with antique guns and knives while the Americans fought with the most modern weapons, including air power. And the marine division was ambushed and nearly wiped out by the peasant soldiers with only small arms.
Hi JayF, an American Chinese with your command of English won't need to spend so much time researching in Wikipedia to post here ; )
You posting from NY area or Florida?
Chua,
I can only assume that you're referring to the Battle of Chosin Reservoir, based on your description.
Ever heard of the term Pyrrihic victory? Out of the PVA deployed for the battle, with 67000 committed, the UN estimated 29K lost in action. The 20th and 27th Corp, made up of combat hardened veterans from the Chinese civil war lost 40% of it's fighting strength, numbers that will be irreplacable considering the quality of the soldiers lost. The 9th Army will not be back to combat strength until March 1951, but the qualitative strength was lost, as demonstrated when the push into South Korea proved a disaster for the PVA and NK forces especially once the UN troops began to orient themselves to Chinese encirclement tactics.
It was their best chance to win the war but logistics issues and the Soviet failure to provide sufficient air cover meant that the war would ultimately end with no change in status quo.
The Chinese commander Song Shilun offered his resignation for the failure to captialise on their initial success and annhilate the 1st Division and the rest of the retreating X Corps.
Had the Communist party suffered such victories where they lost their best troops in the Civil War, it would be Chiang addressing the country at Tiananmen.
Of the X Corp that retreated from North Korea, the casualties of KIA were estimated at 7k, with 20k due to non-combat issues and some 6 k wounded. But the rest of the 100k X Corp survived to fight another day.
Chua,
What makes you think I'm American? Do I type like someone who'd spell coiour without the U?
Hi JayF, the details of the Battle for Korea were quite well documented even in Wikipedia. The PLA was a very basic fighting army with obsolete arms. They were mainly infantry soldiers. Against the mighty combined arms of the Americans they were no match.
The Americans were superior in every area. But the Chinese still forced them on the run from Yalu River to the 38th parallel and were able to hold that line against the Americans. Against all odds, they did very well though they suffered heavy casualties and lost of live. They could be decimated by the Americans if not of their will to fight and to die.
I am not sure if it was the Battle of Chosin. But many American divisions were ambushed by the PLA, including the X Corp and were on the run. That spoke very well of foot soldiers with small arms against modern armies with air support, tanks and heavy artilleries. They fought like ants against a ferocious lion. And the lion was badly mauled.
Oh, I did noticed that you didn't used American spelling. But your English is of a very high standard. My conclusion is that you are unlikely to be Asian.
Cheers.
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