7/28/2016

9 dash lines versus many straight lines

One of the major objections to the Chinese 9 dash lines in the South China Sea is that national territories cannot be written like that on a map.  National boundaries must be drawn as extension from the coast of a country out to the sea, 12 nm and the EEZ should be a further extension to 200nm. The 9 dash lines must be a joke. Where got borders drawn like that one?

Or can national boundaries be drawn in straight vertical lines or straight horizontal lines? Would straight lines drawn on a map, a flat piece of paper using rulers more legitimate? Where got such things, national boundaries cannot be straight lines lah.  Straight lines are like the 9 dash lines, simplistic geometrical lines, not natural, cannot be like that one.

Has any of the boys and girls seen the maps of African or Middle Eastern states that were drawn up by the colonialists? Anyone bother to look at the borders of Libya and Egypt and many other African states, yes, they are straight lines, drawn conveniently by the colonial masters, with rulers on a map on the table. That was the reality of the time. 

Times changed, the development of pens and papers did not happen over night, did not exist in the beginning of civilizations. The ancient people cut marks on pieces of woods, on stones, on tortoise shells as official documents then. Many ‘books, maps and documents’ were done in those primitive forms.

Not counted? Cannot be like that, must be in thick voluminous books, like what we have in the libraries, or the law journals in the courts of law then got count? You think the bible was written on paper like what you have now, that you can buy them from the bookshops? No, they were written on plant fibres, leaves etc.

Now, what is so different between China drawing 9 dash lines on the map and the straight lines drawn by the colonial masters as national boundaries in Africa? Do you know how the British and the Dutch divided the region up as their colonies? They drew lines on the maps then, like the 9 dash lines.

The European colonialists cheated the natives of the land they conquered by asking for documentary proof of ownership of their land. The colonialists demanded signed legal documents. What do you think the natives showed the British the Europeans? Signed documents like those printed in London, or pieces of barks or wood or stones?

The world yesterday was not like the world today.

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

Alamak! I thought tis is My Singapore News blog. Yet every 2, 3 , 4 or 5 articles sure got one China article.

Let them settle themselves. After all they are descendants of the dragons. Many are blood lines of former emperors, nobles, saints , intellects or first class citizen. Whereas we are the second class 3rd even 4th , 5th class outcasts.

Anonymous said...

It is only common sense and commonly accepted reason and logic that a country's sea border is delimited by distance and proximity.

To claim otherwise is a specious argument for China's irredentism. If anyone can just draw a map at any time to claim what they like, then 90% of the Indian Ocean should belong to India and not shared with Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc.

Don't keep on banging your head against simple logic even common folks would agree is right. Unless of course, you belong to the brainwashed nationalistic common folks in China who don't have human rights like fair trial, suffer from house arrests, and can't even say a contrarian view without being arrested.

Anonymous said...

I am going to keep banging your thick head until I can break through to the mush inside. China is claiming little islands not ok.

The Europeans had claimed Canada, USA, Australia, NZ, islands like Hawaii, Guam, Diego Garcia, ok to you?

What do you think Japan is claiming? What do you think the Ppines and Vietnam and Malaysia are claiming?

Hermit said...

China vs West again.

Lycurgus80ofsparta said...

The historical evidence is pretty strong in China's favor. The islands were inhabited by people who considered themselves Chinese for a long time.

China is a much better country then the west because they are non interventionist and do not have the puritan urge to tell others how to behave.

Anonymous said...

" China is a much better country then the west because they are non interventionist "

Not true ok . In that case, since US deploy anti missile system in S K , why complain. The location is not anywhere near the border.

Look at their level of corruption and infrastructure collapse here and there.

Chinese people like to " 玩阴的 ".

They say offer you market, ask you to go there invest and set up. They copy you and set up against you plus their gov behind support their setup against you.

China have to find their niche not just offering people cheat copy products. Take entertainment alone, just look at their 陆小凤 , 萧十一郎. See already also du lan. Never mind script no good but China land of marital art, hoping to see some real good action or fine swordsmen skill display. In the end, pull wire plus CGI only. Very disappointed, cannot even surpass HK's 程小东, 徐克. Ever since HK return back to mainland, the canto pop, HK movies and drama all go downhill.



Lycurgus80ofsparta said...

What i mean in interventionist as in China does not go to brown peoples country and try to install "democracy" and "freedom" which does not work. Both by military means (iraq) and subversion.(syria) the Chicoms also does not go around spreading homosexuality and feminism in other countries via NGOs.

I'm talking about the governments of these China vs west here. Not private enterprise.

Anonymous said...

中国东盟联合声明:全面停止岛礁建设

http://news.ifeng.com/a/20160725/49640875_0.shtml

No fireworks.

没啥可说的,加上红旗9导弹撤回,基本上算是认了仲裁结果

Anonymous said...

Do you think China and the western countries can learn from PAP?
Learn to draw lines the same way the PAP government draw the lines on the electoral boundaries before the General Elections?
- every 5 years, the lines can suka, suka look like spider web?

Anonymous said...

@ Lycurgus80ofsparta,
"The historical evidence is pretty strong in China's favor. The islands were inhabited by people who considered themselves Chinese for a long time."

You are repeating silly Chinese propaganda that does not stand up to basic scienttific facts and research. With regard to human habitation, Scarborough Reef is completely devoid of potable water and fertile soil - among the most basic natural conditions to sustain human life. Research has shown that there was no human habitation and economic on these rocks before the massive Chinese reef reclamation.

Even if Chinese fishermen did sail around these reefs historically, native Malay and Fillipino predate these Chinese by virtue of proximity.

It's easy for you to earn 1 RMB per supporting post from the PRC government, but your posts are undermining your credibility.

Lycurgus80ofsparta said...

If proximity is the condition for ownership then why the falkland islands controlled by the United Kingdom instead of Argentina? Right makes might for the western powers. That is how they play the game, and that is how we shall play as well.

Anonymous said...

That is how they play the game, and that is how we shall play as well.
July 29, 2016 1:49 am

And that is why there is nothing wrong with the way we draw our electoral boundaries in Singapore.
- one day, Jurong West will be part of Pasir Ris GRC too.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:55pm, you silly or Lycurgus80ofsparta silly? How much are the Americunts paying you, one hotdog?

Anonymous said...

From Wiki

Falkland

The population (2,932 inhabitants in 2012) primarily consists of native-born Falkland Islanders, the majority of British descent. Other ethnicities include French, Gibraltarian and Scandinavian. Immigration from the United Kingdom, the South Atlantic island of Saint Helena, and Chile has reversed a population decline. The predominant (and official) language is English.

This one got human inhabitation and can trace its roots. So how come some people can talk blindly

As for Scarborough shoal, Mischief Reef... and so on. Each english name got its reason behind how it is named.

Example.

Scarborough shoal -The shoal was named by Captain Philip D'Auvergne, whose East India Company East Indiaman Scarborough grounded on one of the rocks on 12 September 1784, before sailing on to China.

Mischief reef - One source says that Mischief reef was discovered by Henry Spratly in 1791 and was named after the German sailor Heribert Mischief, one of his crew. It has rocks above water at low tide and a lagoon.

Fiery cross Reef - The reef was named after the Fiery Cross, a British Tea Clipper lost there on 4 March 1860 (later its more famous sister ship took the same name).

Many many so on......Maybe this Fiery Cross clipper brings in opium from India to exchange tea from china to sell back UK.

Wait until China come out to clarify their respective china names and their name origins. Then at least we know what basis is there for them to claim. But by not participating, then who the hell knows what they want to say?

Anonymous said...

@Lycurgus80ofsparta,

If might makes right for western powers and rising China wants to emulate this, then since you have the ear of Xi Jinping, why don't you order him to wage war against China, Vietnam, and Indonesia now for de facto control of SCS ?

Tell us when will China declare war against the Asean claimants ? You know or you don't know ?
Are you a CCP decision maker or a CCP fanboy RMB1-per-post grinder ?

Lycurgus80ofsparta said...

I made lotsa post on behalf of the CCP tell them they owe me $100 at least. Can supplement my NEET lifestyle.

I'm a biological nationalist above all.

Anonymous said...

Eh silly boy, you are like those who claimed my God is called God or my God is called Allah. Allah is not your God and your God is not may Allah.

You read English, you use English map and you expect to find Chinese names to be used?

Anonymous said...

Well, then go and find the china map with Chinese name that name those shoals and reefs.

Back up on the source/names and the reason how China came up with the names.

If you cant provide any useful info, may your whatever god strike misfortune on you for eternity and fire in afterlife for blunt ignorance.

hahhaha! Got brains but no use....sigh...

Anonymous said...

The pro China fans on this pro China site still don't get it. It ain't about the West against China. It is about the livelihood of Singapore and other SE Asian countries. China ain't just askin' for the islands. They are askin' for the whole chunk of South China Sea, which is a vital trade route and rich fishing ground for SE Asian nations. This route and fishing area have been used for hundreds of years and have been left unmolested by tyrant nations in human history. In the past, only pirates spread their terror, but no single nation has done it. Now greedy China wants the whole sea route and fishing area under its control.

In spite of the hostile move China has made against SE Asia, including Singapore, we have blind and unthinking pro China loyalists who would die for Motherland China. But China don't even give these blind Sinkies two fucks. You mean China will give these loyalists a slice of the cake when it steals the trade route and fishing ground after enriching itself?

From a Sinkie viewpoint, this issue is not about America or West against China. It is SE Asia's livelihood (including Singapore) vs greedy China.

Anonymous said...

Please update yourself
Singapore is no more a fishing village for many decades.
Are there anymore Singaporean fisherman? Are there farmers in Singapore? Farm owners there are, though not many.

Without China, the S E Asians can be what they are today?
The Chinese that migrated from China to the S E Asian Regions are the Folks that prospered the places where they settled in.

Do use your commonsense or read up history,for goodness sake.

Anonymous said...

Traitor who supports greed China against Sinkie interest @ 11.05, what about the trade route cut off? Not willing to discuss that? The fishing industry on the other hand affects Vietnam and Philippines most. Either way you look at it, greedy China is bullying the whole of SE Asia.

Yes, we are migrant Chinese. That's the EXACT reason why mainlanders look down on us. And you lick up their scum?

Anonymous said...

You deserve to be looked down.

Yes ! And despise too.

Anonymous said...

These next few years will be critical to see whether China can successfully restructured its economy.

Many countries have either failed or success is limited.

We will see the true potential of China's economic and technological strength then when low end stuff is shifted out or disappeared.

There will be more or less an end to 100% free trade and copying will be made very very difficult after previous lesson learnt.

We will then see the true colors of those so called pro china overseas chinese on how they will help china. Chinese dont invent "walking dog" for nothing.

Lycurgus80ofsparta said...

I believe the above poster is talking about the middle income trap. I'm sure China will not be effected because of higher IQ. All north east asian countries managed to get by.

Anonymous said...

I also believe you would not die because of higher IQ.

But the truth is your brain is already dead than alive.....

I also know the north east asian countries suffer from smog ie. clouding their lungs and vision.

So what should i believe in? or what should i chose to believe. Two very different thing but same outcome as there is no solution but can only hope for the solution to drop from the sky.

You wait for me and i wait for you? In the end i blame you and you blame me. It happen many many thousand years back and is repeating all over again and again.

Anonymous said...

The truth is that pro China supporters in this site cannot swallow the bitter pill that:

1. China's claim over South China Sea (not just those stinkin' islands) affects sea trade routes and airspace, which eventually AFFECTS SINKIEPORE and all other SE Asian nations.

2. It is a hostile move by China that affects the fishing industry of Vietnam and Philippines.

Please address the above. Not whether you have brain or not because you have none in the first place, or you won't support and oppressor that oppresses you.

Anonymous said...


By imposing the 9 dash line as such its sea trade routes and airspace.

What physical affect does it cause to Asean and to Sinkiepore?
Whose trade will drop?

What hostile move does it pose to fishing industry of vietnam and philippines?

This is only just a power control match between No.1 and No.2. If No.2 has control over SCS, life will still go on as WE ALL seek to adjust. It is just only a change of master.

Imagine if there is no US, will the whole SEA starve to death because china is in control of region?

You have fixed yourself in the dotted box and cannot think out of the box.

Just like can Singapore survive without PAP?

Anonymous said...

@4.07, speaking like a true hardcore China chauvinist who see no wrong China does to Sinkiepore. Of course the fucking 9 douchebag line affects us, our sea and air route, and Viet and Philippines fish industry. Here is a report showing Bully Guy China bashing its way through and this is even before having its claim to territory recognised. http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/china-to-begin-3-day/2965232.html

"China will conduct a military drill in the South China Sea from Jul 19 to 21, state-run media reported on Monday (Jul 18) citing the Maritime Safety Agency (MSA).

The MSA, according to CCTV News, warned that entry to the exercise area will be prohibited for the duration of the exercise.

....cont'd...

Beijing claims most of the South China Sea, even waters approaching neighbouring countries, as its sovereign territory, basing its arguments on Chinese maps dating back to the 1940s marked with a so-called "nine-dash line".


Yeah, the fucking nine douchebag line by Bully Guy China. Telling small fries to stay out from the area. Sinkie and others not affectd? Remember, this is not even recognised as China's territory. What more if it becomes China's territory?

I have a strong message for pro China supporters who are willing to betray Sinkieland to support their mother China. Give up your passport and convert it to PRC. That way, no one will have any issue you supporting China against the interests of Singapore.

Oh yah, here is the map and look at how SE Asia is cut off because of the fucking nine douchebag line.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/blob/2954358/1468464042000/disputed-claims-in-the-data.jpg

Anonymous said...

We got so many things already manufactured in China. Why not import seafood from China as well if it controls the region sea?

It is the same at the end of the day for Sinkie as we can only import our seafood. Due to the hardworking Chinese, their productivity surpassed all other countries and whole region benefited from cheaper produce.

Cut off of what? Remember when Japan conquered SEA. We are supposed to be part of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. No matter how big Japan become then, same like china, it will just become like a locust to feed on the resources it needs from overseas as it expands. ie. Japan still need to import resources from SEA no matter how big it becomes.

Japan however executed this plan with no taste and certain brutality. China is in the midst of preparing for one. Seems like its PR stunt is also not too good.

US did it the other way. Packaging it in a nice and presentable way. When US and west invested in China 30 years back then. It knew that both countries standards in terms of environment and labor laws were very different. Did US and west exploit the system and gain from it as well? Then you people pray them as god?

It is all the same at the end of the day. Everybody has its own agenda.

This has got nothing with pro or non pro China. You need to think this out yourself and the newspaper cannot teach you all this.



Anonymous said...

Pro China supporter, you wan to bring in your farder marder granfarder granmarder story then never will end. This issue is China's stinkin' fuckin' nine douchebag line claim. STick to that.

Does the fuckin' 9 douchebag line claim affect Sinkie? Yes? Then as Sinkies, we object. If you still support China, then change your passport to PRC. Simple as that.

No need your farder marder granfarder grandmarder cat dog rat mouse story.

Anonymous said...

Anti Chinese supporter, If this is China's claim. So let him claim.

Does the claim affect Sinkie.... the answer is NO. We sell to whatever to that can afford the money. The more the merrier.

As sinkie demonstrated in GE, 70% still vote for PAP after so many migrants are around.
What makes you think this 70% voted is on your side to object. You can just be the minority. Most likely they voted on what is for their best and common interest.

You are so naive and have not seen the world. Why because of this kind of issue that want to make you change passport. If this is the case, we Sinkies dont know change passport so many times during racial riots, Indo Confrontation etc....

Is this the best argument that you can put forward that only shows your view is so narrow?

At least i put up some grandparent stories to shut your hole. Isnt this better than someone that only build sand castles in the air and then someone just destroyed them easily with ease?

Anonymous said...

Who the fark here is anti-China? I am pro-Singapore. It just so happens China is usurping Singapore's right to free trade route.

So how is not Singapore not affected by the farkin' nine douchebag line? Didn't read the CNA report? You mean you know better than CNA? Wah piang!

If you luv China so much to the point that you are willing to sacrifice Sinkiepore, then just give up your passport, migrate to China and be done with it. You are a traitor.

Now back to the issue. Why are you supporting China who is cutting off our trade and air route? And can stop all your farder marder cock and bull story that is irrelevant here.

Anonymous said...

See how green you are and clouded mind who cannot even see clearly.
You cannot even see that i am leading the discussion.

I never say you are anti china but anti chinese.

How does China usurp Sg's right to free trade. China is already the biggest trader to all SEA nations. Isnt this hurting its own foot?

CNA is one of the worse of all. Of course i am better because i always use my brain to analyse who is talking what he wants us to believe. You need to be analytical and need to digest. You cannot just put the whole chunk in like our education system that relies on memorizing.

As i said, this has got nothing to do with Pro or Non Pro China. You need some wisdom to read between the lines.

All i am saying it is the same at the end of the day. Nobody is threatening Sinkie. It is just the brand of car that might change, it is still a car that has 4 wheels and still need petrol to run as for now.

As for the passport issue, get your so called 70% sinkie 1st to say so. A lot of people without asking WILL change without asking. It is the same worldwide...

Anonymous said...

We hv been discussing China's claim, haven't we? So when u say anti-Chinese, isn't it in that context, China? Or you mean I am anti-Chinese as the whole of the Chinese population in China. Isn't that the cock talking I am telling you to put aside? Or worse, anti Chinese as in the whole Chinese population? Even a bigger cock talker? Pls stick to the point. Talking cock means you have no answer.

The point - China's claim is cutting off trade route. As per CNA article. If you say CNA is worst, back it up. Otherwise, you engage in cock talking again.

China is Sg's big trader. So what? Cock story again. Does nothing to negate the point that the farkin' 9 douchebag line cuts of South China Sea trade and air route. So what if China is biggest trader then cut off our trade route to non-Chinese traders? Isn't that still oppression? Pls address main point. Stop talking cock.

Finally, you are still supporting an aggressor who is raping your country. China is cutting off your trade route and air route. Ships and planes will have to travel round Philippines, costing more time and more fuel, making trade and air route to and out of Sg more expensive.

Pls address that. Don't deny the truth, don't talk more cock. Lastly, stop being a traitor.

Anonymous said...

No need to go so far away.

Take a look how australia is divided.

What a ridiculous way of dividing a continent :)

Those who don't like or cannot tahan reading China "apologist" articles are welcome to their daily, poisonous dose of distorted mainstream media.

This place is a paradise for those willing to open their eyes to see the reality.