6/10/2009

LKY in Malaysian Tour. What a pity?

LKY is in Malaysia, touring the states and meeting the Malaysian leaders from the govt and the opposition. He is there to feel the ground, cultivate new relationships with the new leaders. Yes, it is a pity that he is doing it. It should be Hsien Loong doing it. Hsien Loong needs it more than him. He is history in the making. What will happen now is that he will tell the Malaysian leaders about Hsien Loong. And Hsien Loong will hear from him about the Malaysian leadership. All second hand news instead of Hsien Loong feeling the pulse himself and developing a new relationship with the people he has to deal with during his term in office. There is nothing better than being there himself, and assess the situation and mood himself. Who is in charge?

40 comments:

Wally Buffet said...

Good morning Redbean,

I think only hor! So don't quote me ok?

After being absent for more than 10 years, he is there to feel the ground, size up the competition and see if there is a possibility of a re merger, but this time, on our terms. Since he brought us into the first one, it is only fitting that he be the one to calculate the odds now for the second great coupling.

I have not been upcountry for an equal amount of time. Too scared lah of all the horror stories I heard of muggings, murders and skulduggery in high places. Besides, I am tired of dishing out fifty bucks every time I use their expressways.Very hard to convince Robocops that the "Enterprise" doesn't travel at warp speed. Better take a flight to elsewhere for the mountains and the beaches.

solo bear said...

LKY and Malaysia have a long history of race-related disputes.

While Malaysia has a policy that favours the Malays, LKY has policies that discriminates minority races too.

Not that Malaysia and LKY are buddy-buddies. Why the cuddly-cuddly now?

LKY racially discriminatory policy

solo bear said...

Sorry, need to post again, to activate email follow up.

redbean said...

hi solobear, long time never see your post. welcome back.

i agree that all countries have some discriminatory policies. we have some that are part of the troubles we had from our history. but some of our discriminatory policies are actually positive discrimination to make up for the historical baggages.

Wally Buffet said...

We are at our primeval best when we talk about race.

It would be good to leave race out of the equation. LKY has always maintained, when we were in Malaysia, that Malaysia was for Malaysians and not some privileged race. Guess he failed. The other side couldn't or wouldn't see the logic. What if his idea was taken up - seriously?

solo bear said...

Yes, hi to you too redbean.

Wally:
>>LKY has always maintained, when we were in Malaysia, that Malaysia was for Malaysians and not some privileged rac
>>

I have never been impressed with LKY's supposed "fair" treatment of races. From Day One, I see suspicion in him.

If LKY was (is) sincere, why ask for merger, which he knew FULL WELL of the bumi status, then after getting the merger, call for its abolishment?

PS - I was still too young to know about the merger then, but after going through history, I see many inconsistencies in LKY's arguments. The above is one of them.

redbean said...

i don't think lky was not sincere when championed the cause of a malaysian malaysia. that was exactly what he wanted. but the bumiputras in malaysia had different ideas of the kind of malaysia they wanted. they did not want a malaysian malaysia.

at that time, a malaysian malaysia could possibly work, not in the form that singapore is today, but one with greater participation of the bumiputras. no one can ignore the critical mass of the malays in malaysia, and a different formula would have developed to make sure that they are just as successful and benefit from the system. for those who believe that the malays are less gifted and thus less able to compete, a malaysian malaysia cannot have a formula that leaves them out in the cold. the dynamics of a big malay base will dictate a bigger role for the malays.

now things have changed so dramatically that a malaysian malaysia will no longer work. UMNO has formulated a formula for malay supremacy and this can no longer be removed without incurring the wrath of the malay elite or some quarters in political power.

if there is anything to work on, it will be a totally new formula with malay supremacy enshrined. how could it work otherwise? beats me.

Anonymous said...

what is a positve discrimination?

Anonymous said...

At, what? 84, what is there to feel the ground when you are so near to it?

solo bear said...

comment mysingaporenews

>>At, what? 84, what is there to feel the ground when you are so near to it?
>>

LOL thats a good one!

Wally
>>LKY has always maintained, when we were in Malaysia, that Malaysia was for Malaysians and not some privileged race.
>>

redbean
>>i don't think lky was not sincere when championed the cause of a malaysian malaysia. that was exactly what he wanted. but the bumiputras in malaysia had different ideas of the kind of malaysia they wanted. they did not want a malaysian malaysia.
>>

But that is exactly where the insincerity is! It was LKY who asked for the merger, not Malaysia. So didn't LKY know the bumi status before he asked for it?

It's like you asking your neighbour to allow you in, knowing full well his culture and customs. After he graciously lets you in, you kick up a fuss about his house rules.

Who is LKY or Singapore to demand the host what is to be done? If LKY did not like the rules, he shouldn't have asked for the merger!

Anonymous said...

If Malaysia cannot agree to Singapore's terms 43 years ago, would they agree to a remerger on our terms? Not over Mahathir's dead body.

Ok, ok, Mahathir has no great power left or any say in this matter, but the rest of the powerbrokers in UMNO, or even PAS, are not so dumb as to talk about asking the Bumis to give up their Malay rights, after fighting to entrench it in the Constitution. That is their trump-card.

Lost Citizen

solo bear said...

>> If Malaysia cannot agree to Singapore's terms 43 years ago, would they agree to a remerger on our terms?
>>

For the life of me, I really cannot understand why some Singaporeans have even the gall to think that Malaysia should accept our terms, when we are the initiators of the merger!

It is like telling your neighbour that he'd better let you into his house according to YOUR TERMS!

Isn't that arrogance and hubris all bundled into one?

Matilah_Singapura said...

He should make a joke that he intends to campaign and run for election in Malaysia.

Let's see if those UMNO fucks have a sense of humour.

Matilah_Singapura said...

To solo bear:

LKY might appear to be racist by his statements, but UM-No! prove themselves as patently racist by their actions and policies.

But since they are all political players, fuck the lot of them. They can be as racist as they like or as evil as they like... it doesn't worry me in the slightest.

Anonymous said...

If he makes a joke that he intends to campaign and run for election in Malaysia, UMNO will take it seriously and several things will happen.

1) Many people will be running amok with keris in hand all over Malaysia, with the blessing of UMNO.

2) Mahathir will issue a 'fatwa' on him.

3) He will not be able to visit Malaysia again for the rest of his life.

4) Then they will stage another 'wayang kulit' about wanting to foster closer ties.

Lost Citizen

redbean said...

hi solobear, on the issue of sincerity that you have raised and you strongly believed that LKY was not sincere while the UMNO elite were the sincere ones.

let me bring you back to pre Malaysia days, the negotiations and the players. don't forget that the masters then were still the british who wanted singapore and the east malaysian states to join malaya into a larger entity called malaysia. lky's position was a malaysian malaysia or no deal. malaya's position was a malay malaysia. but the british was the boss and malaya/malay elite could not have their way. they had to accept a malaysian malaysia officially though they privately wanted a malay malaysia.

when malaysia was formed, it was meant to be a malaysian malaysia officially and the malay elite accepted that on paper. if they were to say no, malaysia would not have formed. but they had no choice with the british masters calling the shot.

you may want to consider these points before saying that lky was not sincere. the official position of malaysia was a malaysian malaysia, not a malay malaysia. it was after the formation that the malay elite started to push for a malay malaysia.

solo bear said...

redbean
>>on the issue of sincerity that you have raised and you strongly believed that LKY was not sincere
>>

Yes.

>>while the UMNO elite were the sincere ones.
>>

I did not say that. I was silent on that. I am NOT INTERESTED if they are sincere or not. That's because the condition should be if we want to join them, we should respect their rules. If we believe they are not sincere, we didn't have to join them.

>>let me bring you back to pre Malaysia days, the negotiations and the players. don't forget that the masters then were still the british who wanted singapore and the east malaysian states to join malaya into a larger entity called malaysia.
>>

No. Malaysia peninsular was known as Malaya then. Malaya was not interested in Singapore. In fact, they got their independence even before the merger. It was Singapore who wanted to join Malaysia, when Malaya tried to get Sabah and Sarawak into the Federation.

So if Singapore (the uninvited guest who knocked on Malaya's door) wanted to get into the party, it should respect the host's rules. Unfortunately, after we were accepted, LKY kicked the table that the host allowed him to sit at.

>>you may want to consider these points before saying that lky was not sincere. the official position of malaysia was a malaysian malaysia, not a malay malaysia. it was after the formation that the malay elite started to push for a malay malaysia.
>>

You got facts wrong. Bumi Malaysia existed since Day One. The British allowed the Constitution of Malaya to be skewed to the bumis. LKY knew it FULLY WELL. He went in accepting those terms. He then rejected those terms after being accepted.

If that is not insincerity on LKY's part, what is it?

Anonymous said...

The Past is History now. The British Master was shrewd to let Malaya independent but purposely left the Tiny Red Dot at Malaya's Southern Tip unannexed to Malaya.

Singapore got its' Independence, no big deal as far as I see it and the Local Leadership asked for a merger with Malaysia and was accepted. There was politics and there was politikings. The Marriage broke down because of ideological and personality differences. There were very ambitious people each wanting the best for themselves. Doubt that they(politicians) were very concerned about the people(both in Singapore/Malaysia). I suspect that Power and Reputation were the motive and goal.

THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION NOW is; does Singapore wants and or needs a merger with Malaysia again and WHY ?

Anonymous said...

PM so highly paid still need so many SMs (as well as so many Ministers-in-the-PM-office) to help him in his job . . .

Anonymous said...

Maybe MM Lee Kuan Yew is Muhyddins' old friend and PM Lee Hsien Loong is not.

Wally Buffet said...

A Malaysian Malaysia, a Malay Malaysia. What does it matter to us? It's all water under the bridge. Look at the two countries now and see who is having the last laugh. Getting kicked out of the Federation was the luckiest break Singapore ever had. MM Lee can talk about anything he wants whilst he is upcountry now but if he even considers remerger, a referendum now will result in only one answer. A big resounding "NO Thank You." We have had enough of the bullshit from a country that thinks of building crooked bridges just to up the ante to prove who is the Bang (elder brother). Just another way of saying "Shut Up and Sit Down"!

LOL.

Anonymous said...

ya, and it is not just these million dollars assistants helping him, in addition there seems to be countless advisors and councils of advisors giving counsels; these chairpersons of fortune 500 companies, they dun come in cheap.

Wally Buffet said...

Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe this time, it is THEY asking for a remerger?

At my age, nothing surprises me anymore, especially the politics of horse trading.

Anonymous said...

or an SEZ, johor, perhap? allow the sgporeans to come in and bring in some real competition to the forever sleepy place?

Wally Buffet said...

Johore SEZ meaning invest in Malaysia? Young man, take some advice from this experienced old foggy. Don't, repeat Don't ever sink one cent into that country. You will surely regret one. In any case, with the falling Dinggit, your investments will never see positive territory from day one because the capital gain may never catch up with the currency loss.

The greatest investment folly of my life was to invest in CLOB. I really got CLOBbered! With the benefit of hindsight or no foresight, I should have known that an investment scheme named CLOB would have no happy ending. It took me five friggin' years to recover my money after all the ding dong going back and forth between the two Bangs. And by the time I got back my money, the Ringgit became the Dinggit. "D" as in Down, down, down. Man, was I really pissed. As sure as my nick is WB, I never ever made an investment that was unprofitable. CLOB took away my pride. That is unforgivable and unforgiven.

I will not ever fly MAS or Bank MB. In fact, anything with a letter M, except MONEY is anathema to my personal philosophy. Heck, the only concession I allow myself is to eat Malaysian durians and even that I am weaning myself away in favour of Thai ones.

LMAO (Laughing My Ass Off)

redbean said...

as far as a merger is concerned, i think this is out of question given the political devt in the two countries. but an economic model of cooperation could be conceived and there are many good reasons for one.

let me return to history with solobear. malaya under british rule could turn out to be anything. in fact the british wanted to give equal rights to all prior to independence, during the Malayan Union days. Jaafar Oon fought for more malay rights but the indian and chinese community abscorned, feeling very happy with just economic rights. and they were very wrong not to fight. the rest was history.

as for the birth of malaysia, it was tough negotiation. agreed, if malaya would have the choice, they would not want singapore in. and singapore wanted in on our terms. you can't blame the singapore leaders for negotiating a good deal for singaporeans. the malayan leaders are expected to do likewise. but the masters have the last say.

if malayan leaders have to accept the terms of the masters/singapore's, then they have to abide by them. to throw away those terms, a malaysian malaysia, is more than just insincere. they should not have agreed to a malaysian malaysia in the first place, like the way they fought for the malayan union.

and singapore would not have been in malaysia at all.

lky went into malaysia after negotiating on a new set of terms that the malayan leaders were forced by the british to agree. you can't fault lky for that.

Anonymous said...

It's all water under the bridge lah. Why still want to argue on something that hapepned so long ago? We got other big problems to worry about like how Singapore is going to survive in the post-GFC landscape. They have chose their path, we have chose ours. Live and let live. Cooperate if there are mutual benefits, otherwise just let it be.

solo bear said...

redbean
>> let me return to history with solobear. malaya under british rule could turn out to be anything. in fact the british wanted to give equal rights to all prior to independence, during the Malayan Union days.
>>

That is not true. The Brits do not care a thing about anything but themselves. Malaya is not the only part of the world they have colonised. Take a look at two of its well known colonies before Malaya's independence. The first, being India. The Brits just wanted out. They gave India independence without sorting out the problems it caused. India, after the Brit pullout, had to contend with its own internal Hindu-Muslim dispute - which the Brits did not care about. Till today, that dispute is still in India's hands.

The second case is even worse. UK left Palestine without handing power to anyone. That left a vacuum till today. The Palestinians are the ultimate victims.

The rulers of Malaya probably had foresight, after witnessing what was done to India and Palestine. It is not that I support the bumi status. But looking at what mess the Brits have done to their colonies, I don't blame the Malay rulers for asking the Brits for a proper handover, with terms that the indigenous peoples be protected.

So it is wrong on your part to:

1. Assume the Brits had the interests of its colonial subjects at heart.
2. Assume that bumi status was implemented after Malaya's independence.

>>as for the birth of malaysia, it was tough negotiation. agreed, if malaya would have the choice, they would not want singapore in.
>>

Malaya had the choice and it did NOT invite Singapore. It was Singapore who knocked on Malaya's door and when Malaya accepted Singapore, it was named Malaysia, to include the "sia" for Singapore.

>>and singapore wanted in on our terms.
>>

That is the part of the arrogance of our leaders I have been talking about. It is like going to your neighbour, demanding he let you in according to YOUR terms!

>>you can't blame the singapore leaders for negotiating a good deal for singaporeans. the malayan leaders are expected to do likewise.
>>

I am not blaming the leaders for negotiating. I am blaming Singapore leaders for accepting the terms of Malaysia, only to reject them later. That is hypocrisy.

>>if malayan leaders have to accept the terms of the masters/singapore's, then they have to abide by them. to throw away those terms, a malaysian malaysia, is more than just insincere. they should not have agreed to a malaysian malaysia in the first place, like the way they fought for the malayan union.
>>

The master is Singapore? Since when? Isn't that hubris?

Malaysia never accepted Singapore's terms. It was Singapore that accepted Malaysia's. That's why we were in. Otherwise, who would not even smell the merger.

Matilah_Singapura said...

I doubt if there'll ever be another "federation" of S'pore with Malaysia.

Should the unlikely event occur, I'll throw away my overseas passports, become a terrorist/outlaw and eke brutal and cold justice on those responsible for the intolerable merger or die trying.

I don't think I'll be alone either.

However... back to reality. It makes no sense to join with a backward, racist country which is corrupt to the core by a nexus of religious fanatics, power-crazed politicians and amoral business people.

Sure, S'pore is not "squeeky clean", but at least everyone who is not a sheeple knows the "game", and at least the elite people in charge are essentially our own.

redbean said...

hi solobear,

so far i have made it very clear that the british were the masters. no need to create another area of contradiction to argue about. if you find it difficult to understand masters/singapore, read it as british/singapore. that should clear the misunderstanding.

now, when malaysia was formed, was it a malaysian malaysia or malay malaysia? if it was a malaysian malaysia, then your accusation that lky was not insincere has no ground. and the insincere people would be the malaysian leadership.

lky can only be insincere if it was a malay malaysia.

Wally Buffet said...

Reading the ongoing debate between Solobear and Redbean I am flummoxed by the fervour with which the former is advocating for that country up North. Yes, we are not a perfect nation but nevertheless when push come to shove, I know where I stand and even at this old age will be willing to bear arms to defend our way of life.

There is a chinese saying. You can bring an ox to the well but if it doesn't want to drink of the water, nothing will force it to. What happened way back then was that the Tengku wanted to control security in Singapore to safeguard Malaya itself because of the perceived communist bogey next to its doorstep. It knows it will never be at peace with the little red dot going communist smack between East and West Malaysia. So a fledgling Malaysian Federation can never succeed without Singapore. And LKY is and was never a fool. Negotiations for Singapore's entry into Malaysia was conducted on the basis of a Malaysian Malaysia and in return security of the island was to be the responsibility of the federal government. So it is erroneous to say that we knocked on Malaya's door and asked to be taken in.

Read Lee Kuan Yew's memoir "The Singapore Story" for a full expose on the how and why Singapore joined Malaysia and then Solobear, you may be less fervent in your enthusiasm for the "Good Guys" up North. It may not be the gospel truth but then, I seem to recall that no one, least of all those jokers up North has come out to debunk the truth of its contents.

solo bear said...

redbean and wally,

I suggest you do more research instead of depending on what you have been taught and what LKY's memoirs say. For starters, google words like "Malaysia Singapore Merger" and "Lim Chin Siong". I don't want to give links here because I do not want to show that I am bias giving only one side of the story. Go through whatever links the search engine gives you and see what exactly happened nearly 50 years ago.

I shall repeat what I said earlier. The merger of Singapore into the Malayan Federation was LKY's idea. Malaysia was NOT interested in Singapore. It was interested in Sabah, Sarawak and Brunei. That merger plan was fraught with problems. For a start, Indonesia and Philippines saw that as a political threat because annexing those three Borneo states was like an expansion of Malayan territories.

Looking at the unstable political situation, it was actually suicidal for Singapore to get involved in the merger, because we would make ourselves enemies with Indonesia and Philippines. Remember the McDonald House terror blast which killed people? Yes, that gives you an idea how bad the merger was.

The real intention of LKY's merger was for him to be PM of Singapore. Chin Siong was his arch enemy and was standing in his way. To get rid of Chin Siong, he had to convince the Tengku that Chin Siong needed to be locked up. The deal was that if Chin Siong was not locked up, Singapore would be a thorn to Malaysia, because of his active role in promoting Communism.

On his own, LKY could never get to lock up Chin Siong. That's because Chin Siong was controlling the Chinese ground while LKY was just an observer. With a stroke of genius, pretending to fight communism, he convinced the Tengku for a merger, got the Tengku to lock Chin Siong up, and presto, he became the leader of Singapore as part of Malaysia. The Brits were only too happy too, because with Chin Siong locked up, the communist leader won't be effective against the Brits.

Now all LKY had to do was to make trouble for Malaysia to complete his plan for himself to be PM of Independent Singapore. All he needed to was to make trouble until Tengku cannot tahan. Yes, just like Chin Siong used the Chinese ground to fight the Brits, LKY used the same Chinese ground to fight the Tengku.

It was all well planned even before the merger. As if you do not know that LKY is a planner, par excellence, when it comes to deposing people like Chin Siong. Remember Chia Thye Poh, Tan Wah Piow, Peh Yew Kok, Devan Nair and all his other adversaries?

Please stop worshiping the walking corpse. Please do more research and find out the truth, instead of swallowing 50 years of PAP propaganda.

solo bear said...

Conclusion:
The merger was initiated by Singapore and not Malaysia. If at all, Malaysia did not want Singapore.

Singapore convinced the Tengku about the merger, knowing FULL WELL the bumi status.

After merging, LKY played the race card, questioning the bumi policy.

Isn't that hypocrisy? LKY had it all planned.

Wally Buffet said...

Hi Solobear,

For my part, if you have already reached a CONCLUSION, what more can I say? OK bruther, if you think it is true, it must be true lah.

Cheers and good night. Thanks for the lesson in Singapore's troubled relationship with Malaysia. I must compliment you on being so attached to this subject. You must have your reasons. Me? There is much more to enjoy in life than worrying about what transpired aeons ago. For starters, there is the on going PC show...... :-)

Like I said. I don't give a rat's ass whether they now have a Malaysian Malaysia or a Malay Malaysia. We don't need them now. We are miles ahead in the game, whilst they are too busy squabbling amongst themselves.

redbean said...

hi all,

there are many angles to look at the formation of Malaysia. i lived through that period and read history. i am not just reading lky's memoir to understand the events of the day.

solobear is right that malaya did not want singapore. the east malaysian states were also not in the scheme of things. believe me, at that period, the malayan leaders were only interested in malaya. they had no ambition or vision of a malaysia.

the east malaysian states came in to balance the racial composition so that a merger between singapore and malaya would not put the chinese pop into a majority or the malay into a minority. they were brought in, they were colonies, by the brits to reduce the chinese majority.

singapore wanted to merge with malaya for the thinking then was that it was not viable as a state on its own. the lim chin siong and communist theories were additional plots but incidental.

read my lips. the masters were in a way favouring lky and dictated the merger. yes, they had no love for singapore or malaya, but hey had their interests to take care through their presence in singapore. malaya had no say whatsoever. it was only how to do it and the final say was with the masters.

solo bear said...

wally
>> For my part, if you have already reached a CONCLUSION, what more can I say? OK bruther, if you think it is true, it must be true lah.
>>

What's with you? This is only a discussion. In any discussion there will be differing views. Why so uptight?

redbean
>>the east malaysian states came in to balance the racial composition so that a merger between singapore and malaya would not put the chinese pop into a majority or the malay into a minority. they were brought in, they were colonies, by the brits to reduce the chinese majority.
>>

The Brits after handing over power to Malaya, by then had already no interest in Malaya. The only interest they had was Singapore, which still happened to be their colony.

It was Malaya that wanted to bring in parts of west Borneo because Brunei had OIL. Attempting to bring Brunei in ONLY was not going to work, because that would be seen as a direct interest in Brunei's oil fields. So to make it more palatable, Sabah and Sarawak were put on the list. Incidentally, Brunei was not impressed - and that's why they have never been part of Malaysia till today.

Merging of course was trouble in itself, because as I mentioned earlier, Philippines and Indonesia saw it as a Malayan expansionist plan in the works. As you can now see, Singapore was a non-issue and a non-interest in the eyes of Malaya.

LKY, being the hawk he always has been, saw an excellent opportunity to break away from Brit colonial rule. Just knock the door of the Tengku and ask to be invited into the party. LKY figured that if he did not do that, Chin Siong would have gathered enough steam to oust the Brits anyway - and Chin Siong would be made the PM of Independent Singapore!

So why not get into Malaysia through a merger, get the Tengku who then had to deal with Chin Siong by locking him up, wash hands, and come out smelling clean?

Then when Chin Siong is disposed into the dustbin of history, all LKY had to do is to make enough trouble for the Tengku until he cannot tahan. The rest is history as according to the PAP books!

Malaya never had an interest in Singapore. The Brits never had any interest in Singapore merging with Malaya. It was LKY's plan from start to end.

I feel that the reason why he now visits Malaysia is to build trust amongst the Malaysian leaders so that when he dies, Malaysia will talk good of him, and not pour out all the old dirty linen to tarnish his demi-god status as the "Greatest Leader" Singapore ever had.

Fat hopes. I believe when he goes six feet under, or into the incinerator, all the dirty linen would be exposed. That walking corpse has made too many enemies in his lifetime to come out smelling good, should at anytime the Big One up there checks him in into The Hotel or The Hot Hell in the hereafter.

Wally Buffet said...

Solobear,

You are absolutely correct to say that this is just a friendly discussion.

Only problem is, I am not used to the overbearing dogmatism and the vitriolic personal attacks.

Peace.

Matilah_Singapura said...

Some of you folks are expecting the impossible morals from politicians and founders of nations.

There is NO NATION ON THIS EARTH which has a history of its foundation based on "nice" agreements among agreeable people.

Nations are generally founded by angry, passionate men (rarely women) who are adept at deceit, power plays, persuasion, threats, treachery, honesty, situational ethics and moral superiority...and a whole lot more.

Lee KY's memoirs were written by him to "set the record straight" — his account of what went on, i.e. his side or "version" of the story.

Although I can find lots of faults with the guy, I will say one thing: LKY has always and continues to be an HONEST MAN as far as his opinions and world-view is concerned. If he doesn't like it, he will make it clear. If he is going to whack you, he'll tell you very clearly. If he says he is going to do something (even if it is against common ethics or decency or opinion), you can bet he will fucking do it. And woe behold to the people that get in his way.

This is a mark of a dangerous enemy, and is the "right stuff" when it comes to leading a people to self determination.

Redbean is correct: the PAP have their own version of history which is rife with propaganda. However, as an advocate of critical thinking, use your noggins and the resources available to form your own opinion. You will discover that the "truth" is complex — lots of human activity, personal agendas etc all woven and intertwined.

Anonymous said...

I think we should be reminded by what happened between LKY and Lee Teng Hui of Taiwan.

They are no friends,but in one very heated argument,when LKY was advocating that Taiwan must go back to PRC,teng Hui who speaks English and no fool asked him:

Why don't you go back to Malaysia?

LKY;No,I want but they didnt want me.

This is again a classical line by LKY,the fact of the matter was that LKY made it impossible for Spore to remain in Malaysia,due more to his personal ambitions than anything else.

Lee Teng Hui did learn some things fr LKY,he went on a full swing liberations,against his own dictatorial nature,the idea of course is to make it difficult for PRC to absorb Taiwan,not unlike Tengu who gave up Spore and LKY.

redbean said...

lee teng hui is just a naive joker. PRC will go to war with the US if taiwan declares independence or break away. it is a non issue on this and lee teng hui beat all the drums he likes. taiwan will always be an inalienable part of china.