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7/14/2009

Victims of Savages

Throughout history, the worst savages of racial discrimination, brutality and ethnic cleansing were the Americans and Europeans. They left their marks from North and South America, Africa and across Asia. Hardly any race was spared. The savage killings of the Red Indians, the slavery of the Africans, apartheid in South Africa were historical facts that western journalists and academics chose to shut up and to conveniently forget. In turn, they painted the Americans and Europeans as the beacons of human right champions, the hope to extinguish racial discrimination and the saviour of the world. And a straw man was used to replace the American/Europeans as the number one racist hoard, China and the Chinese. And all the silly Africans and Asians, including Southeast Asians, swallow this line of thinking conveniently. In reality, the Chinese were also the victims of savagery when the West invaded and controlled China, turned it into a semi colony. Then the minority Chinese in Southeast Asia themselves were victims of savages in their adopted countries. The Indonesians were the worst culprits followed by the Malays in Malaysia. Ethnic cleansing were quite a frequent affair, cultural and social oppression were written into laws and govt policies. The only place where the Chinese were not persecuted is Singapore. The only place that the minorities were not persecuted is Singapore. The only country where the minorities were treated fairly and enjoy as equal a right as the majority is Singapore. The Malay minority here is still angry with appointments in the military. But to be fair to the govt, the condition then was such that it was a matter of national security and survival. It was not racial to begin with. They may want to understand the situation then and ask themselves whether the govt could have done otherwise to keep the country peaceful and stable when our neighbours were out to do us in with possible military intervention.

69 comments:

Wally Buffet said...

Whether you are persecuted, discriminated or not, it has a lot to do with numbers.

If you are a minority with under 15% of population, shut up, endure the shortcomings or ship out.

If you are a minority with over 15% but under 30% of population, form enclaves and group together for maximum effect and protection.

If you are a minority with over 30% but under 50% of population, go the political route and take over the running of the country by peaceful means.

Wherever the Chinese is a minority, they have the good sense to quietly gain superiority with other means such as their business acumen. Why can't minorities in China or elsewhere do the same instead of running around like savages wantonly killing innocent people? Obviously, God in his infinite wisdom did not create men to be equals. 'Nuff said.

China is ALLEGED to have treated its minorities, especially the uighurs unfairly. Any one in Malaysia or Indonesia who says they are not guilty of this sin towards their Chinese population is not only a buffoon but a baboon as well. I am being as delicately semantic as I can be so as not to offend anyone unnecessarily.

To the British who robbed and stole from the lands they colonised, the White Americans who killed off the Red Indians and the Aussies who dehumanized the aborigines, Let He Who Has No Sin, Cast The First Stone.

Wally Buffet said...

Just a bit more about the troubles in Urumqi. Two Uighurs were shot dead when they and one other charged at Security forces with long knives and poles. In self defense the security forces had no choice but to open fire. Anyone who tangles with Law and Order has to face the consequences. In normal times, these two men could just have been hauled to the slammer. In tumultuous times and under martial law, they will have to pay the ultimate price.

Nearer home, I am bemused to read about a buffoon who accosted the law and was fined $600. Read about it at:

http://www.tnp.sg/news/story/0,4136,207717,00.html?

The whole trouble with the local police nowadays is that they are too polite and too nice. And so, there will be brain dead twerps who like to tempt the Law. Now he has to work for six days without pay, the $600 being possible earnings for six days. Serve the assinine a**h**e right.

Anonymous said...

hypocrite oath do unto others as other would like to do unto you.

peace

control control power

solo bear said...

>>
The only country where the minorities were treated fairly and enjoy as equal a right as the majority is Singapore.
>>

I do not agree. Singapore has its own racist policies firmly in place.

Here is an article I wrote pointing out some of the existing racist policies being enforced in Singapore.

More crap from Old Man Lee – what integration talking he?

Wally Buffet said...

Here we go again..........

We can talk about racism and discrimination until our face turns blue but the fact still remains that if you are the minority, bear with it or get the fcuk out. No amount of whining or name calling is going to beat the numbers. Geddit? And I am pretty sure you don't want to take to the streets like those buffoons did in Urumqi do you?

Integrate, Assimilate, Emulate. That's how you get a share of the pie - peacefully. And there's enough for everybody.

solo bear said...

>>
Here we go again..........
We can talk about racism and discrimination until our face turns blue but the fact still remains that if you are the minority, bear with it or get the fcuk out.
>>

Absolutely no problem with that one if there is consistency.

My problem is that Singaporeans cause a stink, larfing at Malaysia's racist policies - yet when it comes to our own racist policies, we tell minorities to accept it or fcuk off.

redbean said...

hi wally and solobear,

there are issues and it would be good to discuss it sensibly without using harsh words. the minorities feel aggrieved which is understandable. all minorities everywhere feel aggrieved but at different degrees and different kinds of discrimination and oppression.

the greatest fear i have is that the chinese here becomes a minority and face the kind of oppression and brutality like the indonesian and malaysian chinese had faced, not allowing to practise our religion and culture, not allowing to use chinese names, no chinese language allowed etc etc.

the chinese majority did not do such things to the minorities here. in fact the minorities are encouraged to retain and maintain their identities, religions and cultures. there are not forced to be assimilated. the official language is english, that does not give the chinese special advantage against the minorities. actually many chinese helicopters felt aggrieved by having to learn english instead of chinese. they felt disadvantaged.

Wally Buffet said...

No worries about the Chinese being a minority here. Last I heard, the percentage has been upped to 80 and rising. Next time when I see a PRC, I will view him/her in a different light because him/her is a guarantee that the savages will not run loose and bay for blood at the gates. We can continue to live in peace.

Indeed the minorities here are really being well looked after to the extent that the local Malays after years of good education and competing meritoriously are becoming sophisticated, smart and globally attuned unlike their cousins in Malaysia or Indonesia where they have been spoon fed and become too dependent like infantile children. In fact, Singaporean Malays look down on those from Malaysia or Indonesia. To my Singaporean Malay brother citizens I say "Well done!". You have integrated, assimilated and emulated well.

solo bear said...

redbean
>>
the greatest fear i have is that the chinese here becomes a minority and face the kind of oppression and brutality like the indonesian and malaysian chinese had faced, not allowing to practise our religion and culture, not allowing to use chinese names, no chinese language allowed etc etc.
>>

There you have it!

So you feel that it is MORE IMPORTANT to preserve your Chinese heritage/culture/majority status, than preserving your status as a Singaporean. Why the inclination towards Chinese-ness, instead of Singaporean-ness?

>>
the chinese majority did not do such things to the minorities here. in fact the minorities are encouraged to retain and maintain their identities, religions and cultures. there are not forced to be assimilated. the official language is english, that does not give the chinese special advantage against the minorities. actually many chinese helicopters felt aggrieved by having to learn english instead of chinese. they felt disadvantaged.
>>

You can claim what you want. In in ANY country and ANY society, majority always will sideline the minority. I have given you the link in my last post. Also, the Mainland Chinese have been mis-treating minorities. Ask the Tibetans and ethnic minorities in the Xinjiang Province.

Wally
>>
No worries about the Chinese being a minority here. Last I heard, the percentage has been upped to 80 and rising. Next time when I see a PRC, I will view him/her in a different light because him/her is a guarantee that the savages will not run loose and bay for blood at the gates. We can continue to live in peace.
>>

Ah, so if you can view a Chinese Mainlander in such light, why then do you accuse your Malay neighbour that he is dis-loyal and that he aligns himself to Malaysian Malays?

See the hypocrisy?

>>
Indeed the minorities here are really being well looked after to the extent that the local Malays after years of good education and competing meritoriously are becoming sophisticated, smart and globally attuned unlike their cousins in Malaysia or Indonesia where they have been spoon fed and become too dependent like infantile children. In fact, Singaporean Malays look down on those from Malaysia or Indonesia. To my Singaporean Malay brother citizens I say "Well done!". You have integrated, assimilated and emulated well.
>>

Speak for yourself. I am a Chinese and I see my Malay neighbours as SINGAPOREANS. I also see other races (Chinese included) AS SINGAPOREANS.

It is the likes of you that try to polarize Singaporeans into the different races. Perfect product of racist Old Man's policies.

Matilah_Singapura said...

Repeating myself, ad infinitum:

1) There is only one race — the human race.

2) The smallest minority in the universe is the individual

Anonymous said...

some of commentators should read southernglory1 posting on redbean forum to get hidden racism of west to divide and conquer to stay atop the world both militarily and economically.

I was not taught racism as a child by my family or communities I lived in SE Asia. I am learning all about it from our fair skin creeps(doesn't mean racism don't exists in Asia). The west loves to welcome you with their liberal laws so they could fk you in behind, cocksuckers.

redbean said...

southernglory is a well read forumer. he is saying things that no western writers would want to say. and these are the truths that were hidden from the asians while on the other hand they were fed with the western truths.

and our media are propagating the western truths as if they are the truths.

redbean said...

hi solobear,

take a hypothetical case, 70% malay, 20% chinese and 10% indian and others.

what would be the fate of chinese?

Wally Buffet said...

Matilah!

redbean said...

singaporeans of different races will retain their identities. there is no assimilation of any race into another race. every race would not want to be assimilated by another. every race is proud of their own identity and everyone should respect that.

it will take centuries for a uniquely singapore identity and a people that is distintly singaporean to appear. it cannot happen tomorrow.

for the time being, respect for all races must be the fundamental principle governing our way of life.

Anonymous said...

not mati lah broke lah tiada penglihatan

solo bear said...

redbean
>>
take a hypothetical case, 70% malay, 20% chinese and 10% indian and others.
what would be the fate of chinese?
>>

IMO, so what? If everyone is a Singaporean, so what?

Now if you claim that we cannot hide our racial identity, then you have admitted to what you accuse Malaysia of!

Why then the self-righteous stance that Malaysia got it wrong, using race policies - while we got it right, doing the same?

See the inconsistency?

redbean said...

hi solobear, i only wish that everyone is as innocent as you. the real world is not like a fairy tale. the victims of racial suppression and oppression in indonesia and malaysia will always be a stark reminder to us that it must not happen here, that no racial groups here shall fall victims to those kinds of killings and oppression.

if it does happen, there will be no time for regrets and no time for tears. the majority here must set a good example to take care of the minorities.

your comments about covering up identities as if there is a need to is misleading. our policies is for every racial group to be who they are, be proud of who they are, be free to practise their faith and culture.

no need to hide anything.

what did i accuse the malaysians of?

solo bear said...

redbean
>>
the victims of racial suppression and oppression in indonesia and malaysia will always be a stark reminder to us that it must not happen here, that no racial groups here shall fall victims to those kinds of killings and oppression.
>>

This is the racist propaganda PAP has been drumming into Singaporeans. What suppression? The 1969 riots?

Well the Chinese in Singapore rioted against the minority whites and Eurasians in the 1950s too, no? Doesn't that give the minorities in Singapore something to worry about the majority Chinese then?

Or for that matter, the Malays in Malaysia to worry about the Chinese, such that they want to maintain there bumi status?

Not that I am supporting their policy. It is that if you can justify a racist policy in Singapore, anyone can justify ANY racist policy ANYWHERE!

So why is it that Singaporeans keep laughing at others for their racist policies, but defend Singapore's own racist policies?-

>>
what did i accuse the malaysians of?
>>

That the bumi policy is a racist policy. Actually I agree. But then, so are Singapore's policies.

redbean said...

hi solobear, i have explained and repeated several times in the last few days that there is no official policy here to discriminate against the minorities. the lack of senior military officers were due to reasons other than race though race was seen as the reason. honestly, try to understand why it was done that way and if there were better ways. if you refuse to see my points never mind.

as for the racial riots, 1969 was a spillover from malaysia. but what is very very important is how we handled it. no groups were victimised by our enforcing officers. the officers treated everyone the same with one purpose, to stop the rioting.

think about it carefully on how it was handled in malaysia and indonesia when racial riots started. what were the role sof the enforcing officers?

maybe you can never understand. you have chosen not to.

Matilah_Singapura said...

There is more to one's "identity" than one's race. Therefore is is just plain silly to be so focused and sensitive about racial issues.

The idea of an individual's "identity" is something with many attributes and facets. Identity is what the consciousness "spins out" such that the effect is that the individual becomes "self aware".

For e.g. your profession occupies a piece in the big jigsaw puzzle called "I" or your identity. Say you are a doctor. Someone else is say, a teacher. Are you going to argue and fuss over the fact that doctors are "better than" teachers (or vice versa) or that a majority of teachers will in some ways encroach on the rights of doctors (or vice versa)? Does a single, marginally significant (if that) aspect of your identity determine your existence and your relationship to the rest of the universe to the degree that you are willing to exert disproportional amounts of effort to "defend" that tiny bit of a part of your "identity" — which is an "illusion" anyway.

See how ridiculous this race/racial/racist thing becomes?

As for a racially-centered conspiracy theory created by western liberals (or aliens from the planet Zordor): I think any form of mass conspiracy theory driven by ideology is ridiculous, unless one can demonstrate hard, solid irrefutable evidence (like the rise of Hitler for e.g.) — opinion, factoids and anecdotal accounts don't count as objective evidence.

Wally Buffet said...

Idealistic pomposity devoid of reality.

Vain words won't save the day if he is surrounded by raging savages armed to the teeth and he just happened to be at the wrong time and in the wrong place.

Whilst you may cringe at his obviously infantile understanding of Man's primeval tribal instincts you would at the same time marvel at his outstanding naivety. Even monkeys of different species only learn to co-exist. They don't and can't morph into one species.

Blimey, I need some air after reading the hogwash.

Matilah_Singapura said...

I don't know if wally's comments were directed at my ideas, no matter. If it was (I'm making an assumption here), wally fails to argue against my ideas successfully instead resorting to the Ad Hominem logical fallacy which is no argument at all.

However, there might be a glimmer of hope is a worthwhile point. Wally states:

> Whilst you may cringe at his obviously infantile understanding of Man's primeval tribal instincts <

Not at all. We all have instincts. As I've said before, we are hard wired through evolution to be tribal because that notion has some "survival value". In the really old days before science and reason, anyone who looked "different" to the tribe might pose a danger. (e.g. a hostile member of another tribe).

We developed our capacity to reason not to overcome our instincts but to interpret them better, and thus guide our actions in more "suitable" ways. We are not going to get rid of the primeval hard-wiring anytime soon — evolution is slow, very slow, and given the general state of human thinking, it is going to be awhile before the "bad thinking hard wiring" is selected out of existence. (unless we annihilate ourselves first or get killed by the universe — anything from asteroids to viruses).

In that respect, I agree with your allusion: that marauding hoards of savage tribes could kill you simply because you are of a different race. Although we have the capacity to think independently and reason, many people choose to go with their hard-wired instincts and behave like their inner primeval animal.

In that sense, tribalism and the associated modern equivalent: racism is the crudest form of COLLECTIVISM. Collectivism is when individuals give up a huge chunk of their capacity to think independently and "go with the group" or the common ideology (group-think) of us vs them.

And in S'pore/Malaysian history it has occurred on more thn one occasion: Maria Hartog riots, race riots, the on-going animus between ethnic Malays and ethnic Indians in Malaysia.

This is what happens and is going to continue to happen as log as individuals place their (idea of) race above the idea that they are an individual and capable of disagreeing with "the group".

Will it happen? I hope it does, but I seriously doubt it.

solo bear said...

redbean
>>
hi solobear, i have explained and repeated several times in the last few days that there is no official policy here to discriminate against the minorities.
>>

No official policy or no official policy that is promoted as discrimination against minorities?

>>
the lack of senior military officers were due to reasons other than race though race was seen as the reason. honestly, try to understand why it was done that way and if there were better ways. if you refuse to see my points never mind.
>>

I am not even talking about that. I am talking about CDAC funds, race quota at HDB and SAP schools.

>>
as for the racial riots, 1969 was a spillover from malaysia. but what is very very important is how we handled it. no groups were victimised by our enforcing officers. the officers treated everyone the same with one purpose, to stop the rioting.
>>

So in the end, is the 1969 a race riot that we should consider when we say we keep Chinese as majority or not?

If yes, then the 1950s riots instigated by the Chinese gives Malays in Malaysia valid reason to have their racist policies in Malaysia.

If no, then is not PAP playing the broken record of the 1969 riots as bogeyman, to scare the Chinese out of their pants to fear the Malays?

Again, in the end, is not PAP playing race politics here, the way UMNO is playing up north there?

And again, are we then not as racists as the Malaysians we accuse them of?

I am not saying Malaysia does not have racist policies or they are justified. I am saying that before we point fingers, we should take a look at ourselves first.

Wally Buffet said...

Hehe Matilah, my comments although juxtaposed immediately after yours was NOT directed at yours. I couldn't read your comments until after I've posted mine.

Nevertheless, I wish to re iterate that we can only be Chinese, Malay, Indians or Others first and Singaporeans second. Obama is as American as they come but you can see he is trying to retrace his roots when the press made a big hoo ha about his visit to the slave trade outpost in Ghana recently. Primeval forces are very powerful forces. One may sympathise or empathize with the cause of another race but to champion it rabidly is simply unnatural unless of course if there are extraneous factors involved such as if one's spouse is of another race or if one is really something else.............Like you said Matilah, the Net is not Real and I am not Wally Buffet but the old man from the moon!

redbean said...

hi wally, matilah is losing it. just reading one para of your post and i knew what you were talking about, but matilah didn't. even his sweeping attack of my fallacies were in vain as he knew not what i was saying.

matilah, stay sober can? you are degenerating. you can't even figure out what i was posting about : )

redbean said...

hi solobear, i am very proud of you for standing up to defend and fight against perceived inequalities against the minorities. it is with people like you among the majority, and they are many like you, that we will not bully and ill treat our minorities.

none of our minorities live in fear that they will be beaten up by the majority at their whims and fancies. they live their social life free from fears or threats of physical harm.

by looking at what is happening in the region, the discrimination, beating, raping, burning and killing of the minorities by the majorities, the best thing that has happened to this island is to have a majority that is willing to share power and living space with the minorities.

as for the 1950s riots, you must read a bit of history to know what you were saying. it was not a racial riot against the whites. it was an anti colonial movement, a political and ideological struggle for independence.

And you mentioned about minorities instigating a riot against the majority and the majority took the excuse to attack them in Malaya, again you got your history all wrong. all over the world, the chinese majority has been the most law abiding citizens, just go about their economic and social lives, even avoiding politics and conflict with the authority. they are too smart to want to invite killing and destruction onto themselves in their countries of adoption.

look at xinjiang, it is the minority that is killing the majority. i hope my sharing of historical facts will help you to have a better understanding of what is real and what is imagined.

cheers.

redbean said...

hi solobear, i am very proud of you for standing up to defend and fight against perceived inequalities against the minorities. it is with people like you among the majority, and there are many like you, that we will not bully and ill treat our minorities.

none of our minorities live in fear that they will be beaten up by the majority at their whims and fancies. they live their social life free from fears or threats of physical harm.

by looking at what is happening in the region, the discrimination, beating, raping, burning and killing of the minorities by the majorities, the best thing that has happened to this island is to have a majority that is willing to share power and living space with the minorities.

as for the 1950s riots, you must read a bit of history to know what you were saying. it was not a racial riot against the whites. it was an anti colonial movement, a political and ideological struggle for independence.

And you mentioned about minorities instigating a riot against the majority and the majority took the excuse to attack them in Malaya, again you got your history all wrong. all over the world, the chinese majority has been the most law abiding citizens, just go about their economic and social lives, even avoiding politics and conflict with the authority. they are too smart to want to invite killing and destruction onto themselves in their countries of adoption.

look at xinjiang, it is the minority that is killing the majority. i hope my sharing of historical facts will help you to have a better understanding of what is real and what is imagined.

cheers.

solo bear said...

redbean
>>
by looking at what is happening in the region, the discrimination, beating, raping, burning and killing of the minorities by the majorities
>>

If you mean the riots in Indonesia in 1997, you are mistaken. The riots was an economic issue. The consumers felt that the shopowners were jacking the price of rice, sugar etc, when actually it was the rupiah that lost its value. It just so happened that most shopowners were Chinese.

>>
the best thing that has happened to this island is to have a majority that is willing to share power and living space with the minorities.
>>

Unfortunately, Old Man Lee is a racist and he does not wish to share power with even one single minority. Remember Dhanabalan?

>>
as for the 1950s riots, you must read a bit of history to know what you were saying. it was not a racial riot against the whites. it was an anti colonial movement, a political and ideological struggle for independence.
>>

It is true that it was a political issue. However, Lim Chin Siong used the Chinese race card to incite racial tension. The Chinese Singaporeans heeded his call and rioted.

Years later, it was LKY who used the Chinese race card against Malaysia.

Incidentally, Maria Hertogh was also a political issue. It was the Malayans against white colonial rule. But PAP re-wrote it to be a race issue, didn't it?

>>
And you mentioned about minorities instigating a riot against the majority and the majority took the excuse to attack them in Malaya, again you got your history all wrong.
>>

Where did I say that. You are mistaken.

>>
all over the world, the chinese majority has been the most law abiding citizens, just go about their economic and social lives, even avoiding politics and conflict with the authority.
>>

I strongly disagree. The Chinese Triads are a force in the Underworld to be reckoned with. They are well organised and they operate globally.

Even the Mafia and Latin American Warlords are pale in comparison. The Mafia controls Italy and some parts of Europe. The Latin American Warlords control Central America. The Chinese Triads are found around every part of the world.

>>
look at xinjiang, it is the minority that is killing the majority.
>>

Are you sure? If there is something all Chinese should be ashamed of, it is the treatment of the minorities in Xinjiang and Tibet. I am ashamed. Why are so many Chinese Singaporeans not?

Wally Buffet said...

This debate is getting fractious.

Now, someone is saying in effect that countries with Chinese majorities are not peaceful because of the presence of Chinese Triads. Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore are such countries but I don't see anarchy. In fact, the govt. of these three dynamic places are much on top of things. In particular, triads in Singapore are a spent force. Nowadays, you don't threaten someone with gangs, you do so with the force of the Law. And as Redbean puts it, these three "dragons" are more interested in business and making money than mucking around with some Chinese fraternity bullshit. Anyway when you mention Chinese Triads, the Mafia and Central American gangs please also don't forget the Free Masons which is also a secret society.

Why are so many Chinese Singaporeans not "ashamed" of what's happening in Xinjiang?

This one really takes the cake! Why should the Chinese be ashamed when:

1. It was the Weegers who killed Hans first when marauding gangs swept through the streets of Urumqi on 5th July, attacking old people, women and children and the defenseless. Go watch Youtube and you will see the violence. Doesn't it remind you of something happening nearer home in the not too distant past? Or maybe you have a very selective memory.
2. Weegers as minorities are given privileges such as propagating more than one child and reduced criteria for university entrance that the majority Chinese do not enjoy. Yet, these Weegers, instigated by foreign forces want to secede from China and form an independent islamic state. If your neighbour hacks away one of your rooms in your "palace", I'm sure you are not going to take things lying down.
3. As in Tibet and now Xinjiang, hostile forces are bent on splitting up China as what was done to the USSR. Tibetans and Weegers are merely pawns in the power game and let me assure your naivety that the PRC will never ever forsake one inch of their territory even going to the extent of nuclear war to prevent it. Lessons of European, American and Japanese subjugation are etched in their minds. In such circumstances, the use of overwhelming force in Xinjiang to quell the riots is not only prudent but morally justified.

solo bear said...

Wally,

My point to redbean about Chinese Triads is to stress that the Chinese, like other races, are only humans and not angels as what he appears to say.

As for your erroneous spelling of Uighur as "Weeger", you have shown to be a racist. How would you like if a White spelled Chinese as "Cheeneese".

Please also be reminded that China INVADED Xinjiang and Tibet. So who wouldn't defend their homeland?

So, if at all, looking at the perspective of majority oppressed minority (as in the main post), it is the Chinese Mainlanders who have a long history of oppression against minorities, rather than the Malays and Indonesians oppressing minorities.

At least the Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia have very successful businesses to boast of. What have the Huis and Tibetans in China have?

Like I said, before we point a finger at another party that they are racists, look at mirror first.

redbean said...

hi solobear,

your posts have been most enlightening. just a comment, be clear in what you are saying and don't mix racial issues with other issues like gangsterism. it undermines what you are trying to say intelligently.

by your interpretation, the chinese must be ill treating all the 56 minority tribes in china and they should all rise to form their own states. just a reminder, china was ruled by two minority tribes in some part of their history, the mongols and the manchus. the uighurs, tibetans have all been part of china for centuries.

you should go to the USA and encourage the red indians to riot against the US govt and drive out the whites and the afro americans. and the achehs, the sulawesis, the timoreans, the sumatrans etc who feel that they should have their own country instead of being discriminated by the javanese.

and the minorities in europe should also rise to revolt against the govt for racial discrimination, in england, spain, france, australia as well.

i am sure there are many who share your views and interpretation of historical events.

Anonymous said...

Redbean,

You are being too kind and generous in your comments on Solobear. His thinking, if you call that thinking, reflects on his hidden biases and preconceived views of things. The best way to describe him is a screwup kid. I think he is not what he claimed he is. You should remove his mask.

Wally Buffet said...

"At least the Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia have very successful businesses to boast of. What have the Huis and Tibetans in China have?"

When you spend the greater part of the day chanting sutras and bowing towards Mecca, success in business is not going to flow like rare wine.

You want success in business or investments? Go get it! It's all about effort, work, toil, acumen,
risk taking etc.

solo bear said...

redbean
>>
your posts have been most enlightening. just a comment, be clear in what you are saying and don't mix racial issues with other issues like gangsterism. it undermines what you are trying to say intelligently.
>>

But it was YOUR POST that claimed that Chinese are hardworking and law-abiding! I was just showing that you are wrong.

So if we shouldn't mix gangsterism with race, why then should we mix hardworking and loyalty with race? You mean the Chinese are so special, they have this quality no other race has? Isn't that LKY's racially chauvinistic argument?

>>
by your interpretation, the chinese must be ill treating all the 56 minority tribes in china and they should all rise to form their own states.
>>

That is YOUR interpretation. My point is that if you want to claim that the Chinese are goody-two-shoes, you are wrong. China has skeletons in the cupboard like any other large and powerful country.

>>
just a reminder, china was ruled by two minority tribes in some part of their history, the mongols and the manchus. the uighurs, tibetans have all been part of china for centuries.
>>

Tibetans and Uighur part of China for centuries? Says who? China?

Now why would you want to show your affiliation to China, when you are a Singaporean?

Isn't this feeling for China, the very reason PAP says that we should fear Malays feeling for Malaysia?

So, if at all, while the Singapore Malays have been saying over and over again that they feel for Singapore, why are some Chinese Singaporeans still showing affiliation for China?

Shouldn't we look at the loyalty of Chinese Singaporeans rather than Malay Singaporeans then?

Like I said many times before, shouldn't we examine ourselves in the mirror before we point fingers at others?

>>
you should go to the USA and encourage the red indians to riot against the US govt and drive out the whites and the afro americans. and the achehs, the sulawesis, the timoreans, the sumatrans etc who feel that they should have their own country instead of being discriminated by the javanese.
>>

No need to go so far. All we need to ask ourselves is, do I feel any affiliation for China?

If the answer no, there's no need to defend the oppression (like Chinese oppression against minorities in Tibet and Xinjiang) and just stick to being loyal to Singapore. What China does is China's own business because it is a foreign country.

If anyone defends the oppression, I question his loyalty to Singapore, the way PAP questions the loyalty of the Malays.

solo bear said...

Wally,

So you admit that the Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia are enjoying fruits of their labour.

What oppression of Chinese in these lands?

Wally Buffet said...

The Chinese, wherever they are in the world, are successful not because of patronage or by the will of God. They toil for their success aided by a huge dose of business acumen. But that doesn't mean they are not oppressed in Malaysia or Indonesia. In the former, nincompoops get into university because they are of a certain race. In the later, until very recently, Chinese were not allowed to celebrate Chinese New Year and all Chinese must have Indonesian names. Yet, despite the adversities, they have become business titans no thanks to the laggards amongst whom they have to live together and may I add, peacefully. There are no Chinese uprisings in Malaysia or Indonesia. It's always the other party that picks the fight first.

redbean said...

hi anonymous,

i can read solobear's agenda and where he is coming from. but it is good that we can discuss this calmly and get some of these things off our chests.

i am a student of history and i interpret history from facts, not on emotions. to be engage in intellectual pursuit, it is impt to engage the brain rather than the heart. but then again, when the heart is attached to the issue in discussion, it is very difficult to step aside and make an objective assessment of things.

and the important thing is not to try to win an argument just to prove that one is right. just state the facts clearly and coherently and leave it to the readers to make their judgement. no body is going to agree with you just because you persistently said something is white when it is black or grey. scholarship is an intense process of the thinking mind.

solo bear said...

Wally,
>>
The Chinese, wherever they are in the world, are successful not because of patronage or by the will of God. They toil for their success aided by a huge dose of business acumen.
>>

That is the Chinese chauvinistic argument LKY has been drilling into Singaporeans. You are the product of his drumming.

As for the Chinese being mistreated, please note that most successful Chinese businessmen in Asia are Indonesians. Even the average Hong Konger cannot match the wealth Chinese Indonesians have.

Also note that Malaysia is the ONLY country outside China, to have FULL CHINESE schools. Not even Singapore has that.

Yes, there is discrimination in Malaysia and Indonesia. But there is also discrminiation in Singapore.

Yes, the minorities in Singapore have their cake. But so have the Chinese in Indonesia and Malaysia.


Redbean,

The above points are facts, not emotions.

Emotion is when we laugh at Malaysia for their racist policies, yet justify our own.

History student or no history student.

redbean said...

hi solobear, when you said 'we laugh at malaysia' please don't include me. i may be cynical at some to the malaysian policies, like i am cynical at some of our policies, but i don't laugh at them. i talk about them hoping that people will do something about them and make things better.

my criticisms and cynicisms are meant to be constructive.

remember that throughout history, there have never been a majority initiated attack on the minorities for racial reasons. this i am very proud of and i am sure you too, as a majority, will be proud of such a record.

and this is something we must maintain and prove to the minorities that we can live in harmony, coexist as one people, and progress together in an inclusive society.

peace be upon him.

redbean said...

hi solobear,

i think you have realised that i did not engage you on a point by point rebuttal, and hopefully you know why. in a discussion, like a competition between two karatekas or judokas, you fight like one and not turn it into a slugfest, swinging hands and legs wildly, including throwing shits and stones at your opponent. resorting to such tactics will not win you the argument. no one will want to engage you, maybe only wally who will throw shit and stones back at you. he was right to notice that the discussion was fractious.

it is impt that a discussion is conducted sensibly and in a logical manner. let me just reply to a few points that you raised. the reference to triads was simply irrelevant to the issue of racial discrmination. triads may be secret societies, running illegal operations, drugs, prostitutions, gambling dens, but they never practise racial discrimination. neither would that want to engage in politics of their adopted countries though they started as political organisations in china. it only shows that you have very little knowledge of chinese history and culture.

i would like to engage you more on your preception of racial discrimination like CDAC, HDB quota etc. could you elaborate on why these are seen as racial discrimination?

solo bear said...

redbean,

My point on triads was a response to your point that the Chinese are law-abiding. If you feel that triads have nothing to do with discrmination, please note that abiding to laws have nothing to do with it too.

Let's just stick to topic of discrimination.

>>
it only shows that you have very little knowledge of chinese history and culture.
>>

Chinese Culture has NOTHING to do with the topic of race discrimination.

>>
i would like to engage you more on your preception of racial discrimination like CDAC, HDB quota etc. could you elaborate on why these are seen as racial discrimination?
>>

If I told you Singapore has racist policies, would you believe me?-


Racial Quota for HDB is for PAP to stay in power – and it is racially discriminatory-

solo bear said...

Sorry, first link did not work.

Here it is again.

If I told you Singapore has racist policies, would you believe me?

redbean said...

hi solobear, no one is claiming that there is no discrimination here. and i went through your links and found that those complaints were more like common flu, happen everywhere. and some were the attitude of individuals.

the only place that would not have such complaints will be heaven. but it depends on who you are and which heaven you visited.

those people who are feeling racial persecution, threats and fears of bodily harm will tell you that this little island is heaven on earth.

it is like we are complaining that our 2rm flats are too small or the distance to the mrt is too far or the train/bus is 10 mins late.

Matilah_Singapura said...

From solobear's blog:

> while racism against Asians in the West is due to the work of individuals, in Singapore, racism is institutionalized, propagated and endorsed by the government. <

If I remove the word "Singapore" and replacing it with "non western first-world democracies" then i would agree with this assertion - of course the effect would vary in degree depending on the govt in question.

Whether or not the s'pore has race-based policies in effect, is a seperate enquiry. As far as I'm concerned, I haven't made up my mind yet.

This video may shed some light on the principle of unconcious cognitive biases, which we all have:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRUs9Ni3Bv8

Back to the discussion on race issues: the PAP edict to disallow certain "topics" makes the search for truth more difficult. Freedom of speech is another social institution which the west is better at than collectivist Asian nations.

solo bear said...

redbean,

So if the racist policies in Singapore is like common flu, wouldn't it be the same for the bumi status in Malaysia? Wouldn't it be the same for Indonesia's Chinese having Indonesian names?

As for this island is heaven, why do these Malaysian and Indonesian Chinese not flood to Singapore and be citizens here? Why are there so many of them who return to their homeland, if it is so bad there?

My point is that LKY is a racist and he has been playing the race card since Day One. That's why we always hear the same tune that the Chinese in the north and south are oppressed, oppressed, oppressed.

Matilah,

The West itself has its own censorship. In America, you can get locked up (without charge) under the Patriot Act. In Europe, question the Holocaust and you will be given fully paid holiday with food and accommodation, courtesy of the government - in jail.

Matilah_Singapura said...

solobear,

Yes. You are preaching to the choir. I occasionally work in the US (and am subject to Patriot Act clearance) and have lived in Australia most of my adult life.

You are not totally correct about govt-sanctioned race policies. In many western countries there is a thing called "affirmative action".

Wally Buffet said...

Solobear,

Since you are so enamoured by the Country-Up-North's racial policies, watch this video Here

You can be fervently assured that this skulduggery will not happen here and if you are ever in trouble with the law over in Matland, you might want to note the name of the lawyer at the start of the video carefully. He is a very good lawyer.

solo bear said...

Wally,

Are you trying to say because of what happened as portrayed in the video, it is justified for Singapore to have racist policies?

redbean said...

my only suggestion to solobear, since he said he is a chinese, is to apply to live in malaysia as a pr and experience what is going on there.

as for the accusation of discriminations here, they are plain bull. any govt agency applying racial discrimination will be taken to task. the HDB quota, the CDAC, the GRC were done to ensure that all are races treated fairly.

we even bent backward to be nice to terrorists and potential terrorists who are hell bound to destroy properties and lives. and the innocent young man in the youtube video is something that cannot happen here. no one will be harassed or beaten up by the police for no valid reasons, be he a majority or minority.

on the individual basis, every race have their own bigots. and these are not only confi8ned to the majority. and quoting these as examples are simply improper. i have witnessed many rude and cocky minorities making unreasonable demands on the majority. these are testaments of a society giving high regards to the rights of the minorities.

in other countries they will threaten the minorities with violence if they dare to demand for equal treatments.

solo bear said...

redbean,

I repeat. I acknowledge that there is racism in Malaysia. However, please note that Singapore has racist policies too, although you are not willing to admit that so easily.

I repeat that my point is that before we throw dirt at someone else, we should examine our own backyard.

This is the irony. While pushing to learn the Chinese Language, PAP especially Old Man Lee, has created Chinese Elitists which have actually become (putting it very bluntly), Chinese Chauvinists.

One of the aspects of Chinese Tradition is humility. Chinese Tradition also teaches diplomacy and tact. Agreed?

However, note that in spite of all the push by Old Man Lee to make Singapore as Chinese as possible, instead of propagating humility and diplomacy, we have Singaporeans who are now chauvinistic and arrogant.

These Singaporeans will laugh at the racist policies of our neighbours - yet play down or ignore Singapore's own racist policies. At the same time we say Chinese are a hardworking race. As if being Chinese itself is a god-given thing to behold.

Sad to say this redbean, but to me, the push for the Chinese Language has made Singaporeans only better at the language. However, it has not done anything else. It does not get Singaporeans to appreciate Chinese Tradition like humility and diplomacy.

In short, the Speak Mandarin Campaign, SAP schools etc to me is nothing more than a political tool, used by the PAP to maintain power, so that it can use Malaysia and Indonesia as the bogeyman to scare you out of your pants.

If PAP were serious about introducing Chinese Traditions, it would get us understand humility and diplomacy. But that wouldn't scare Singaporeans out of their pants, would it?

Now, if you truly want us to go back to our Chinese roots, I say let's be humble and diplomatic towards our neighbours in the North and South. Stop the dirt throwing at our neighbours and start to admit that we too are not perfect, having our own racist policies.

Wally Buffet said...

This mother of all truism statement is going to stop all these arguments which is dangling like a ding dong and going nowhere.

There is alleged covert racism in Singapore but overt and proven racism in Malaysia and Indonesia.

Satisfied or not now huh?

redbean said...

hi solobear,

it will be good if you were to remove your colour lenses and stop looking at things from the coloured perspective. the chinese schools or sap schools were more in name than in form. the standard of chinese taught and the products of such schools are still very singaporeans and very little chinese. many of the students coming out from such schools are still more fluent in english, with a western mindset, than they are with mandarin and being chinese chauvinist. they are colour blind.

another point is that this is not a racist policy to stamp the superiority of the chinese culture. all the major racial groups are encouraged to retain their cultural ballast or risked being westernised and lost the bearing of who they really are. if you want to be picky, the madrasah are an anti thesis of what we are trying to doing in this melting pot.

the chinese chauvinist era is over. the new generation of chinese singaporeans, like the new generation of the other races, have more in common than their parents generation. but if the elders in our society keeps on harping and brooding over racial issues and sensitivities, the young will be brought up with these mindset as they get along in life.

do we want to accentuate such differences or play it down?

solo bear said...

redbean posted
>>
it will be good if you were to remove your colour lenses and stop looking at things from the coloured perspective. the chinese schools or sap schools were more in name than in form.
>>

Of course as a Chinese Singaporean, you would say that. Just like a Malaysian Malay will the same of the bumi status. So what is the difference?

>>all the major racial groups are encouraged to retain their cultural ballast or risked being westernised and lost the bearing of who they really are. if you want to be picky, the madrasah are an anti thesis of what we are trying to doing in this melting pot.
>>

Well, same can be argued for the anti-thesis Malaysia is racist, because there are full fledged Chinese schools.

>>
the chinese chauvinist era is over.
>>

That's right. So let's stop listening to Old Man Lee's crap.

>>
the new generation of chinese singaporeans, like the new generation of the other races, have more in common than their parents generation. but if the elders in our society keeps on harping and brooding over racial issues and sensitivities, the young will be brought up with these mindset as they get along in life.
>>

Good. So let's abolish CDAC and other funds, SAP and race quotas in HDB.

redbean said...

hi solobear,

sap schools were necessary as chinese parents were not sending their children to chinese schools and all were destined to close down from poor registration. and all the future chinese will become WOGs, or worst, WOPs, westernised oriental punks.

you may not appreciate it, but the chinese community was afraid that their children were losing their roots. it was and still is a very serious problem.

as for hdb quota, it has its pros and cons. but for preventing more tension being build up thru racial enclaves, it is a lesser evil. anyway singapore is a very small island and people can get together quite easily. i think this is a very wise policy.

i still did not get your point on why cdac is racist. please explain.

solo bear said...

redbean posted
>>
sap schools were necessary as chinese parents were not sending their children to chinese schools and all were destined to close down from poor registration.
>>

Ah, there you have it! If it was because of poor registration, that means only a minority is interested in Chinese schools. Why then does the government appease these minorities? Creating an elitist Chinese group?

>>
and all the future chinese will become WOGs, or worst, WOPs, westernised oriental punks.
>>

There you have it again! It is to create an elitist Chinese group!

What grudge does the PAP have with the bumi status that seeks to hold Malay interest now?

>>
you may not appreciate it, but the chinese community was afraid that their children were losing their roots. it was and still is a very serious problem.
>>

What Chinese community? You said it yourself that it was POOR REGISTRATION.

Why is PAP appeasing a small elitist group of Chinese and make it sound as if the majority Chinese are for it?

>>
as for hdb quota, it has its pros and cons. but for preventing more tension being build up thru racial enclaves,
>>

But here is the irony! The SAP IS CREATING an enclave of elitist Chinese!

So on one hand you do not want to have enclaves - racial quota. On the other hand, you create an enclave - SAP!

>>
i still did not get your point on why cdac is racist. please explain.
>>

I have explained in detail in my blog. CDAC having the biggest fund due to biggest number of contributors will have far better programmes than smaller funds.

In any case, what is wrong with the one big fund concept?

redbean said...

hi solobear, you are paying too much reverence to the chinese masses. many are just unthinking and have very short sighted vision of things, something like the minority masses all too preoccupied with making ends meet. they will send all their children to english schools just for economic well beings, to get a job, make a living. period. these masses are not going to form the elite.

have you interacted with the products of the sap schools? many are just like any english educated students. nothing of the chinese elite you are fearing. they may have been taught a bit more about chinese literature and history, but their pragmatic mentality will supercede everything else, and what they did was to pass examinations. the standard of chinese education in sap schools are no where near the chinese schools of the past.

in all my adult years, i have yet to meet anyone who resembles anything like a chinese elite or any inkling of chinese chauvinism among those below 40. chinese chauvinism came from those generations in the 60s and above, and fading away. we need to move on, move forward.

as for the cdac, they have more funds from more contributors. but they have much bigger task, bigger problems with more children needing help.

what do you expect, everything collected in a common pool and split equally with 70% getting 1/4 of the share and 8% also getting 1/4 of the share? you think this is fair and if not done this way it is discrimination?

if you are familiar with the structure of a tertiary institution, you will find a very small group of chinese students who have more affinity for chinese culture, music and literature. and apparently, not many in these groups are from sap schools. please show me where are your chinese elite groups? i have yet to find one, not even among those in govt today.

in channel 8? the bulk of the programmes are catered to the ordinary masses, very little thinking required, just laff and laff, like high on drugs.

solo bear said...

redbean posted
>>
have you interacted with the products of the sap schools? many are just like any english educated students. nothing of the chinese elite you are fearing.
>>

Whether SAP has generated a group of Chinese elitists is not the point. The point is that PAP has institutionalized discrmination in Singapore. The SAP was designed for that.

Likewise, we can say that the NEP in Malaysia has not created a mass of elite Malays. Yet, you and I know that's discrimination, isn't it?

>>
as for the cdac, they have more funds from more contributors. but they have much bigger task, bigger problems with more children needing help.
>>

What bigger tasks and what bigger problems? Why can't we have just one big fund and EVERYONE will share the task and problems EQUALLY?

>>
what do you expect, everything collected in a common pool and split equally with 70% getting 1/4 of the share and 8% also getting 1/4 of the share? you think this is fair and if not done this way it is discrimination?
>>

Are you trying to say that the Chinese only help Chinese, Malays help only Malays, Indians help only Indians, etc? Is that what you are saying?

redbean said...

hi solobear,

you are assuming that the number of people in need are divided equally in 4 quarters. the number of needies are proportional to their respective sizes and the allocation of resources is according to the number of heads, not by a simple formula of 1/4 each.

in absolute terms, there are more needies among the majority than the minorities.

solo bear said...

What is wrong with the majority Chinese helping the minority Malays?

What is your reservation?

Are we not all Singaporeans?

So what if majority has more needs? That's the same for Malaysia too.

If you say only Chinese can help Chinese, are we not in the same boat as Malaysia with the bumi status?

redbean said...

hi solobear,

i don't think the CDAC, Mendaki Fund and the Indian Fund are against anyone one group helping another. They are self help groups structured to be more efficient to serve the interests of the respective groups.

in no way did i say that one group should not help another group. there are many ways in which assistance are provided by different organisations.

you are making a false judgement on this matter. you need to look at things more objectively instead of harbouring angry thoughts that the whole world is against you.

Matilah_Singapura said...

Logical fallacy — false premise:

Those self-help groups do not help "groups". They are formed to help individuals.

solo bear said...

redbean,

So if one group can help another, why not just one big giant fund?

Matilah_Singapura said...

Logical fallacy: non sequitur

non sequitur |ˌnän ˈsekwitər|
noun
a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.

> if one group can help another, why not just one big giant fund? <

In that case, why not several more funds, or better still person-to-person in which each individual gets to choose who he is going to help.

There are no logical reasons why there should be only one group or several thousand groups.

IMO solobear has weakened his position by attempting to introduce arguments to which there is no argument. (redbean also resorts to such 'tactics' whether he is aware of it or not)

redbean said...

hi solobear,

you are looking at the issue from one single perspective which you thought is the truth. i heard that the chinese wanted to use the fund to conduct gambling courses and building temples to conduct classes on buddhism and taoism.

now that would be unfair to the rest of the contributors. so they decided that each group can have their own fund and do what they like with it and the other groups will have no need to complain about it.

solo bear said...

What is wrong with the one big fund concept, if we are all Singaporeans?

What is your objection to that?

redbean said...

what's wrong? can't you see what i was trying so hard to explain to you?

these money collected are the people's hard earned money and should be put to good use, in this case education. if the chinese want to use it on the pretext of education, running courses to train croupiers etc, would you agree? or you may agree. but the people may not agree that their money be abused or use for things they don't approve of.

to prevent unhappiness among the groups, it is better that each group manage their own contributions to prevent unhappiness and grievances. you are only thinking of the bigger donations in the cdac which you want to stake a claim to it as a right, that it should be shared equally then you will consider it to be fair. i respect your right to have this kind of logic.

i don't manage these funds. the people manageing them must have very valid reasons to do so. in this case i will not impose my whimsical thoughts on them. you and me will look at things with very biased views that are coloured. it is better to let professional people manage them objectively.

solo bear said...

redbean,
>>
you are only thinking of the bigger donations in the cdac which you want to stake a claim to it as a right, that it should be shared equally then you will consider it to be fair. i respect your right to have this kind of logic.
>>

Me:
But the above is what Malaysian Chinese want in Malaysia. And some Chinese Singaporeans support that too. So why are we not practising what we preach?

>>
i don't manage these funds. the people manageing them must have very valid reasons to do so. in this case i will not impose my whimsical thoughts on them. you and me will look at things with very biased views that are coloured. it is better to let professional people manage them objectively.
>>

Malaysia has its reasons to have racist policies. Singapore has its reasons to have racist policies. So, we finally agree that BOTH Malaysia AND Singapore have racist policies.

All I am saying is that before we point a finger at others, let's examine our home first.

redbean said...

hi solobear,

you see, after a few exchanges of views it is so clear that your reasoning and logic are so superior to mine. you have proven beyond any doubt that malaysia and singapore are the same, both discriminate against the minorities, no difference.

glad that you have made your point : )