This was taken inside the Kai Yuan Temple in Quanzhou during my recent trip to China. The girls were tourists visiting the city.
7/04/2012
God’s money
The believers donated happily, willingly, though painfully, to God, with the hope of 30 fold, 60 fold and 100 fold returns. What is wrong with that? Nothing really! It is willing giver willing taker. It is caveat emptor. Why the big fuss? The only thing that I cannot fathom is the round tripping. Maybe this one got some accounting peculiarities that offended the law.
Putting this aside, money willingly given to God must be God’s money. There is no compulsion, like taxes or CPF. There is no law against anyone giving money to God. Calling it charity is also wrong. God does not need charity. Who the heck called these as donation to charity?
Anyway, once the money if for God, how the money is used by God’s servants to serve God is no one else business. If the servants think that singing and cutting albums in the US is to serve God, then let it be so. If the intent is good, good for the contributors, what is the problem? Even if it is pornography or insurance schemes or whatever schemes, if it is for the good of God, that is good enough.
It is also reported that 40 companies were set up by CHC or the pastors and the senior pastors. If the monies are theirs, it is personal and private matter. If the money is God’s money, then one needs to ask what is the purpose of these investments. If the investment is to grow God’s money to serve God, it is perfectly legal and logical. Sovereign funds were also set up in same kind of reasoning, investing the funds to serve god’s interests. Oops, I meant the sovereign’s interests.
See, all can be explained. It is the intention that counts. If the intention is not to cheat, which no one will admit or own up, and if it is explicitly said that it is to invest for the long term for God’s sake, it cannot be faulted. Or can it?
RB,
ReplyDeleteYou are referring to 'actus reus' which is a criminal act. Most crimes have two components: mens rea (or intent) and actus reus (action). Both intent and action are normally required to find a person guilty of a crime under Criminal law doctrines.
Obviously, the intent will be argued in the trial. It will be interesting to watch for the looming battle. Ultimately, the state will triumph in this clash of laws - state vs spiritual. Really langgar!
Gintai,
ReplyDeleteThe believers would want to claim that it is their money, God's money, it is their own business, nothing to do with the law.
Unfortunately you are right. Jesus also capitulated to the Romans by saying what was owed to Caesar had to be paid. On earth, the secular god is more powerful and will decide what is right and wrong.
A bit like our CPF money, our money but....
CHC.
ReplyDeleteBelievers blind faith while donating?
GE 2011.
60% blind faith while voting?
Does this mean the CHC congregation all come from the 60% ?
@redbean
ReplyDelete>> The believers would want to claim that it is their money, God's money, it is their own business, nothing to do with the law.
If that is the case, if the ALL agree, then the law must step aside. Everyone is entitled to be foolish with their money if they so choose, so long as it is voluntary and the matter is self-contained in their one fuck-nut ideological system.
However there is (at least) ONE (businessman) donor who is "not satisfied", and he has every right to demand JUSTICE.
If people are so dumb as to believe that a few borderline porno music videos are going to bring people to jesus, willingly back up their outrageous ideas with their own money, so be it.
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ReplyDeleteIf you are " happier" after dropping 10% of your pay packet why not - why care about your aged parent or starving childre.
ReplyDeleteThen there is a certainty of Huat Ah ultimately - what cannot be told
Sinkie give money to Pappy -> lost in SWF , European Debt ets
ReplyDeleteChurch goers give money to CHC -> lost in 50 sister companies
What is the Diff : One is lan lan the other is happy to give.
But both are just as Stooopid.
Got 2nd passport ?
Everyone with good conscience cannot agree with caveat emptor is a fair practice. Deception can be highly sophisticated. Innocent and especially not many particularly bright people need to be protected. The recent introduction of the lemon law is way over due.
ReplyDeleteOn deception, religious deception is the most sophisticated. The law basic two components, intent and action, to determine guilt is under-equip to deal with religious deception. You need a third component - object.
Action, Intent and Object. Religious practices are dictated by the religious Man towards God, the object of worship.
But who adds realism to the object in an absentee God? The high priest of course! In other words, the priest/pastor is in an advantages position to frame the religious narrative.
If he is charismatic enough, even your blood sucking mosquitoes can too be worshipped.
But what about the Christian God? More than 30 000 versions are enough to convict the middleman( all the religious scribes) of religious fraud.
Unless the object of worship turns up in court to be the ONLY relevant witness, the court need not show mercy.
We have yet to establish the...object!
The Lehman bond and toxic notes case was explained away with caveat emptor as the defence. They may quote this as a precedent and get away with it as well.
ReplyDeleteKnowing that it is snake oil and buying it is not fault of the snake oil seller.
bodoh christianity has latched on to the wrong god lah so cheats and blood all over your hands lor....you under there stand or not?
ReplyDeleteYah,why do you think so many reasonable and intelligent people condemn Christianity as stupid,idiotic and nonsensical religion?
ReplyDeleteGod is on the side of science and common sense la. You have to be real stupid to be involved with Christianity. How I know? God told me so laaa! Muahahahahaha
If it is God's money, God will have to personally say how it should be disposed. Where is this God? Show me. You can't even locate his mouth and yet talk so much garbage in the pulpit.
ReplyDeleteit is always the middleman that shows the...finger
ReplyDeleteThis God thing is a very personal thing. To those who have experienced it or who claimed to have a personal relationship with God, they claimed they know God.
ReplyDeleteFor those who did not have such experience it is very difficult to convince them.
It is best both live in their own world. The troubling thing is for one group to want to convince another and to condemn the other for not believing in the same thing.
In the case of religion, the unacceptable thing is to target the young, to frighten the young, to pressurise and harass the young, and to extort money from them. This also applies to those desperadoes, the ignorance or in their death beds.
I would like to see a law against praying or preying on the young for their money and on their fear. Let them go to church or any places of worship. Just leave their wallets alone.
The young should be protected from vultures like they are protected from prostitution. When they have grown up, let them do what they think is right or good for them. There will still be the weak ones that will fall prey to any kind of scams.
You see RB, you are neither hot nor cold in your position about God. If you leave it to "personal experiences" and not insist on concrete proof, there will be no right and wrong and it becomes...anything goes which account for all the bloody conflicts and controversies in life.
ReplyDeleteUse your head. You can't compromise on truth and by truth, we mean..show us THE MONEY!
Whenever money is donated to a religious institution.
ReplyDeleteThe spiritual leader will pray to God for guidance on the best way to use the money.
"God. Please help me decide what to do with this money. I will throw the money up into the air. And I will keep whatever money you do not want that falls onto the ground."
The truth is in 'the money'....that's why you say....you shall know the tooth and the tooth shall set you free if not.we shall start breaking teeth...lol
ReplyDeleteWhy is this church so greedy about money? Donate, donate, donate, donate until it hurts, donate until one cries?
ReplyDeleteGod so greedy meh? God needs so much money for what?
You respect the Bible, that's ok but whoever has the key to unlock its content, the content must make sense to the world.
ReplyDeleteChristianity doesn't make sense ~ period.
God doesn't need money , Human gong beans do.
ReplyDeleteArmitabah... ormmmm
ReplyDeleteEveryone shall enjoy his freedom of expression, of belief, of association. No one shall impose his will on others. The Chinese pray to their own gods, the Indians their own gods, the Malay Islam. If they keep to their religions, why is there a need to ask anyone to prove his belief is right or wrong?
ReplyDeleteOn religious and spiritual matters, what is truth and untruth is not so easy to prove. You want to prove there is no devil? Who is going to bring a devil on stage as proof? You want to prove God's existence?
I am an atheist, non religious. I am still searching and wanting to know if there is God. Let me ask you a simple question. Where does the chicken comes from? The egg? Where does the egg comes from? The chicken? Which one comes first?
Wrong. Everybody shall enjoy limited freedom. You don't have a right to cheat, lie and steal in the name of God
ReplyDeleteYou are right again.
ReplyDeleteJohn Stuart Mills, a political philosopher, defined freedom under the terms, self regarding actions and others regarding actions. One can have all the freedom as long as his actions only affect himself and not others.
Once a person's action affects others, it is call others regarding action. That is as far as freedom can go. When one's action or freedom starts to affect others it stops there.
Cheating, lying and stealing are others regarding actions.
Cannot be our legal fraternity that blur right? CHC better close down. Abuse of church funds is only the tip of the iceberg in CHC saga.
ReplyDeleteThe law should be righteous and just or people will lose respect for the institution
Clean up or pack up
Is there a god? This has been asked by men since early civilization. No one know for sure. Maybe the question should be can things we see in this universe be created without a god? Looking at how stars are born and destroyed, I rest my case.
ReplyDeleteWho nees CHC when we oredi have PAPpy ? hurh huurh Huuurh ?????
ReplyDeleteGot Money ?
redeba -- trying to be all things to everyone and epically failing:
ReplyDelete>> Everyone shall enjoy his freedom of expression, of belief, of association. No one shall impose his will on others.
Fucking bullshit lah redbean.
RELIGIOUS IDEAS get forced upon people sooner or later by their "devotees". They can't help themselves. Religion induces a kind of mania, after sometime even seemingly normal people exhibit strange behaviour.
Sooner or later religious poison seeps into the political culture and form some of the basis for laws -- the laws that rule over everyone.
All supernatural and mystic beliefs must be constantly attacked by ridicule, scorn, mockery and humour
Matilah,
ReplyDeleteYour behaviour is really strange today. Suffering from alcohol deprivation? I am not everything to anyone, just myself. I am no saint and has no superior religion to impose on anyone.
Only the deluded will ever think of imposing his religion onto anyone when his own religion is as broken as anyone's else.
21st century beans, highly educated, could not think for themselves and needed to believe in half literate ancients to guide their lives. This is pathetic.
Seek ye the truth means you got to go and find it. Not in believing another lost sheep. And guard your money carefully. Anyone in the name of whatever gods come asking for money, is a warning sign. God does not need your money.
I once knew of a fake monk. He wanted to build hospitals, homes and all the big charity projects. Sounded good. Actually what he wanted was your money.
ReplyDeleteAll the young people out there, please take note when people start to ask for money for whatever excuse. That's the only think you have other than your life to give. If they are after your money, walk away.
You can't ignore. You got to resolve the God conundrum or live with the......poison.
ReplyDeleteGive to God? Who the heck is God? My grandfather road?
ReplyDeletegod is the imagination of the believer.
ReplyDeleteredbean, still the same o same o
ReplyDeleteFormless. Non committal. Rationalising, philosophising, editorialising...but...zero, nothing.
No definite conclusion.
Yep, that's redbean.
Matilah,
ReplyDeleteAll your praising is too much for me to take. You are elevating me to a higher realm of existence. I feel a bit embarrassed. Leave some for yourself ok: )
redbean, you can mess around witht the words. Fact still remains: you stand for nothing. Anything oso can.
ReplyDeleteHot air lah. Hot air rises, hence your self-caused elevation ;-)
You are a real joker man. This is a blog and of course hot air lah. You think this is a serious newspaper with professional journalists writing facts and back up by hard research and with several layers of highly qualified editors paid with handsome salaries?
ReplyDeletePlace legs here. Part. Hot air! lol
ReplyDeleteSelf elevation is nothing new. Practically our talented leaders are doing it day in day out, so being part of the herd, do likewise lah.
ReplyDeleteNo money, use credit card, no credit card, use charity. No charity, use sophistry, gods will not be bothered with anything.
patriot
Action, intent and object all need to be established - especially object.
ReplyDeleteThe holy trinity.
ReplyDeleteIt is perception here, no law involved lah.
ReplyDeleteGod=object?
ReplyDeleteSelf elevation is practised by everybody lah, it is not only our talented leaders do that. In fact the lesser talented do more, and need to do more. patriot is a kind of self elevation too, saying you are more patriotic and love your country more than others.
ReplyDeletepatriot is jus a lovable nick, nothing more, nothing less.
ReplyDeleteMe am thinking to change it to Darling bcos there are quite few Patriot/patriot around.
Darling
Darling is also self elevation. My point : everybody practise self elevation, not only the elites.
ReplyDeleteHi Tocqueville, welcome to the blog.
ReplyDeleteThe believers are blind to the misdeeds and evils of the religions.
Sinkies would idolised such entrepreneurship, to be able to convince thousands to empty their pockets to transfer into their pockets.
ReplyDeleteCan't blame them. Should admire their marketing skills and talents. With those kind of monies they have acquired, it comes with a lot of dignity and great companies.
They proved at least one thing; they are more talented and better than the Men/Women in White in making money, whether it's god's money or their hard earned money.
ReplyDeleteDarling
If they can market their skills around the world, it can be a great source of revenue for the country. See how rich the Vatican is? If we commercialise this business model, it would be many times better and more profitable than Temasek or GIC.
ReplyDeleteNow they have screwed them up and screwed up this great money making opportunity.
Sinkies love to be conned. Every charity, church, temple or religious body will have a lot of public money to do some good. What matters is how much is being taken out to line the pockets of some individuals and fatten their bank accounts.
ReplyDeleteAny institution with $100m fund could do hell of a lot with $50m and pocket the other $50m for some individuals.
The Sinkies are dull not for no reaons.