9/06/2018

Lawrence Wong – factually, legally wrong

‘It is "factually and legally wrong" to claim that Housing Board flat buyers do not own their flats and are merely renting them, said Minister of National Development Lawrence Wong.
 

That is because all buyers of leasehold properties - whether public or private - enjoy ownership rights over their properties during the period of the lease.
 

"They can also sell their properties and benefit from any upside, or rent it out if they choose to," he said at the Peak Forum for property industry professionals at HDB Hub on Tuesday (Sept 4)….
 

Mr Wong added that the Government welcomes all feedback and views on public housing, especially as the topic is one that Singaporeans care deeply about.
 

"But the debate must always be based on facts, not misinformation and half-truths," he said.
 

He did not name any commentators but The Straits Times had published a commentary on Aug 14 by International Property Advisor chief executive Ku Swee Yong, who recommended "that we be honest with ourselves and recognise that we are merely lessees who rent the HDB flats for their terms".’ Asia One
 

The controversy over whether HDB flat owners are lessees or tenants of rental flats continues. The people are increasingly taking the view that they are not owners of HDB flats but tenants on long rentals. The govt is very annoyed by this interpretation and insists that the HDB flat owners are owners but on a 99 year lease. This controversy is starting to sound funny if not of the legal implications like property tax and freedom to do what they want with their flats if they are the owners.
 

The govt is taking the high ground that it is agreeable to a public debate by the debate must be based on facts, not misinformation and half truths. In the above quote, Ku Swee Yong was quoted to say this, ‘that we be honest with ourselves and recognise that we are merely lessees who rent the HDB flats for their terms’, implying that this is either not facts, or misinformation or half truths or a combination of all three. I dunno which is which as the person quoting it would have his own interpretation and so would anyone reading it. There must be some misgivings on the govt’s part, or is it Asia One for quoting Ku Swee Yong. Now, what is the problem with this statement?
 

What about this statement by Lawrence Wong, ‘That is because all buyers of leasehold properties - whether public or private - enjoy ownership rights over their properties during the period of the lease.
"They can also sell their properties and benefit from any upside, or rent it out if they choose to.’
 

Are these statements facts, misinformation or half truths? Are public leasehold properties the same as private leasehold properties? Off hand I could point out a few differences. 1. The cost of the land is different in the sense that private leasehold lands are bought at market price. Some public leasehold lands are acquired under different sets of rules and prices. 2. There are many conditions attached to public leasehold properties that are absent in private leasehold properties. 3. The paying of a sales levy instead of the full sales price that means profits from price appreciation will be taken away by the govt. 4. No collective sales. 5. Cannot remortgage except under HDB terms. 6. No commercial loans after 60 years. 7. Stringent HDB rules on subletting. 8. Basically no full ownership rights. 9. Time restriction on resale after 5 years.
 

So, are public leasehold properties the same as private leasehold properties? Are the statements full facts, not misinformation or half truths?
 

When one is talking about facts and truths, one must be talking about apple and comparing apple with apples not apples with oranges. Tiok boh?
 

KNN, everyone claiming to be telling the truth, nothing but the truth, not half truth. Can anyone tell me who is telling the truth and who is telling half truth?

38 comments:

Virgo49 said...

Titles deeds are held by the Board even fully paid.

Read the Title Deed of The Land Titles Act:-

Lessor: Housing And Development Board

Lessee: Flat Buyer

Date of Lease:

Execution by Leasee

Execution by Lessor
The CommonSeal of the HDB

b said...

He can read or not? He qualified accountant or not? Did he stay in a hdb? HDB lessee owns a lease title only but have to pay all renovations and some maintenance. its a lose lose situation. worse than some renters.

Anonymous said...

Ownership of public HDB flat is akin to ownership of savings in CPF account. Your flat is like not your flat ( is HDB's ?); your money is like not your money ( is their money ? ).

Ownership of private property is akin to ownership of savings in bank account. Your property is your property, your money is your money.

Anonymous said...

Would the garment charge these people spreading fake news or half truths?

Oops, who is spreading fake news or half truths?

Anonymous said...

If you really own your HDB flat;
- Can you and your neighbours do an en-bloc sale of your HDB block ???

jjgg said...

Don't know what this temporary hdb minister's qualification is but surely even he can say in layman's terms what hdb leasehold are.. or maybe.. " the truth may not set him free".. why not just convene parliament and pass another black is white law.. so simple.. end of all arguments!!!

Anonymous said...

Banned TED Talk:
Nick Hanauer "Rich people don't create jobs"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCvf8E7V1g

--------------------------

So, if rich people do not create the jobs, what does?

A healthy economic ecosystem — one in which most participants (especially the middle class) have plenty of money to spend.

Over the last couple of years, a rich investor and entrepreneur named Nick Hanauer has annoyed all manner of other rich investors and entrepreneurs by explaining this in detail. Hanauer was the founder of online advertising company aQuantive, which Microsoft bought for $6.4 billion.

What creates a company's jobs, Hanauer explains, is a healthy economic ecosystem surrounding the company, which starts with the company's customers.

https://www.businessinsider.com/rich-people-create-jobs-2013-11/?IR=T

Anonymous said...

Goal pole position keep on changing is the real truth.

Anonymous said...

@ 9.45am

If rich people do not create jobs;
- Can Millionaires who are also Ministers create jobs?
----------------------------


/// The former Chief of Defence Force who has never worked a day in the private sector told state media Straits Times in an interview that he will spending an undisclosed amount for a one-year “study” to research how Singapore workers can be matched into “future jobs”. ///

http://statestimesreview.com/2018/09/05/minister-ng-chee-meng-invent-new-term-worker-4-0-for-industry-4-0/

Anonymous said...

How do you know if you own your HDB flat?

If we sue for our "HDB ownership documents" in court ... do you think the courts will tell us if we really own our HDB flats?

Anonymous said...

Mayb wat Ah Gu Yong Yong trying to tell HDB flat dwellers " ..ur flat is like belonged to Garmen flats la...the Garmen owed ur flat is like u owed the flat, just like the bai kar char bor NMP said b4 ceepuifxx monies is belonged to Garmen la" Ah Gu Yong Yong just wanna remind the Sinkies that ur 'owning' of HDB flats r illusionary as after 99 years it becomes zero value, so dun be bianed by the whites devils la..

Virgo49 said...

Hi Anon 10.12

Title deeds kept by HDB even fully paid. Cannot use as collateral for any Loans. Your property or HDB.

They don't called Cheng Hu Coos for nothing.

Government flats. Lease back also from HDB. So lease back means lease as tenants. Now as owners.

Anonymous said...

A case of too much power n having their own interpretations as truth?
Nevertheless, all matter of man is partial truth n partial lie (not complete truth). For man is imperfect n has imperfect knowledge. His bias n self position are obvious.
To try to be the legislator fake or truth (news) has crossed the line into the Maker's (God) territory. Only God has n is the Truth. Be careful.
The committee is a reflection of too much folly n pride n intolerance. Its insistence will witness the relentless coming back to expose its foolishness of half truth that is plain for all to see.
Better cut loss n close the committee. An exercise in futility.

Anonymous said...

How People Become Easily Controlled By Tyrants

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-05/how-people-become-easily-controlled-tyrants

-----------------------------
The question often arises in liberty movement circles as to how we get to the point of full blown tyranny within a society.

There are numerous factors that determine this outcome, but through all the various totalitarian systems in history there are common denominators
– elements that must be there for tyrants to prevail.

When we can identify these common elements in an objective manner, we make it far more difficult for despotic structures to stand.

Whoever said...

There is no need for debate. If the Minister who is in-charge of HDB wants a debate based on facts, he should go to the highest court in the world (not Singapore) and clear the matter once and for all.

Why not Singapore court? Because many Permanent Residents (who are from other countries) also leased HDB flats. So, it is only fair that the matter should be brought up in an International Court.

Anonymous said...

1 local humane rite lawyer wanna challenge the MND Min Lauran Wong for a debate on HDB ownership :

https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2018/09/06/human-rights-lawyer-challenges-mnd-minister-to-debate-on-the-exact-nature-of-public-housing/

Anonymous said...

Mr Ku Swee Yong is in big trouble for the spread of fake news, if Lawrence Wong is correct. It carries jail term and penalty according to the current new laws against fake news!!
On the other hand Mr Wong could be the one guilty.
It is clear to me, either one of the two gentlemen has committed a serious offence.
If the author of the fake news law ignore this issue, it is making a big mockery of the new Law.

Anonymous said...

RB I think u miss one big one. That is private leasehold come with strata title mean collectively the residents own the land though for 99 years that is why they can enblock whereas the hdb dude just suck thumb.😰

b said...

With so many restrictions, only HDB owns the HDB flats lah. Even renters in private condos do not have that many restrictions.

Virgo49 said...

To add insult to injury, pay yearly what's Ground Rent.

Now Town Council sinking fund for Layman Homo Bros and Lesbian Sis

Whoever said...

Since 90% of Singaporeans and PRs paid or are paying to HDB for their 99-year-lease flats, they should collectively get a Team of Queen's Council to challenge the HDB and the Ministry of National Development in an International Court to clarify their legal status vis-a-vis what Minister Wong has said.

Whoever said...

This matter is extremely serious because it does not only affect the present lessees but also all future generations. The issue must be straighten out and settled urgently once and for all. It cannot be brush aside or be swept under the rug.

One way or another, a satisfactory answer must be obtained from the proper legal authority. In this case, the legal authority must be the highest legal authority In the World!

Anonymous said...

Lawrence Wong has opened the Pandora Box.

All HDB "lessees" will have no choice but to vote him out in the next Generals' Erections.

Anonymous said...

If u buy a lease on a car for say 1 month from a car rental company, u own a 1-month car-lease. U don't own the car. The car rental company owns the car. How can u say it's your car!

If u buy a lease on a flat for say 90-year from HDB, u own a 90-year flat-lease. U don't own the flat. The HDB owns the flat. How can u say it's your flat!

See! Substitute flat for car.

UG said...

How about dont lease car? Buy car? When you buy a car, it is 10 years? After 10 years, scrap? Other country, the car is put forever beside your big big house till it rots?

Also, there is pro bono funds for legal aid in Singapore? What is the funds for? Totally free for peasants? Or the peasants still must pay $1000 - $2000? Or what is the cost? Earn $2000 a month, still must pay $1000? Where the money Ang Moh? Rental housing totally free? I say Ang Moh because we are US alliance? And than Ang Moh say Make America Great Again? So weird? And peasants here shout help help help on alternative news websites? So money leh money leh? When our cheng hu change alliance to China, I will ask the Ah Tiong, money leh money leh. It depend on cheng hu what. I am a peasant. If no job, go WDA or e2i, they never help you, also see cheng hu want help you a not what right? Not depend on cheng hu meh? Than go election for what? Stay at home loh.

Anonymous said...

A Sad Joke
-----------

Hello.
I am a Russian Billionare.
I want to buy redbean's HDB flat from him for $3 million dollars.

But I am not a Singaporean citizen.
And I am not a Singapore PR.

So redbean cannot sell his HDB flat to me ... because HDB say cannot.

If redbean is really the owner, redbean should be able to sell his HDB flat to anybody he wants.

PS:
The above is just a joke.
Because your HDB really belongs to you.
Because I believe in Low-Life Wong.

Whoever said...

Minister Lawrence Wong,

There is no need for the public to debate with you.

There is also no need to give misinformation or half-truths.

All we need to do is:

1. Factually, check the DICTIONARY for the definition of the two words "ownership" and "lease".

2. Legally, check the legal documents signed between HDB. (lessor) and the purchaser (lessee).

3. Go to Court in front of a Penal of Five Neutral International Judges to determine the exact and true legal status of both parties in the lease documents.

Anonymous said...

St James Power Station Has No More Power

Existing for 12 years as Singapore's largest nightlife establishment, St James Power Station has finally closed down to partygoers on Saturday (1 Sep 2018).

This is a clear sign that Singaporeans are not doing well despite the growth in the GDP.

Foreigners working in Singapore usually save their income and send a major portion back to their respective countries. The have very little money left to splurge in nightclubs.

For those who are PRs and New Citizens, they usually save their income to purchase a house/flat and seldom go and spent money in such places.

If more and more night entertainment places are shutting down, that means the PAP will also have to shut gone?

Anonymous said...

1. If I buy a resale HDB flat on the open market (with no subsidy) why do I have to wait 5 years and need HDB’s permission to rent my entire flat to interested parties, even if my unit is fully paid up? No such ruling applies if I buy a private apartment.

2. Why do I need permission from HDB to rent out any of my rooms if my unit is fully paid up? No such ruling applies if I buy a private apartment.

3. Why do I need to wait at least 5 years before I can sell my unit even though it was bought on the open market with no subsidies? No such ruling applies if I buy a private apartment.

4. If I am a single owner of a resale HDB unit and want to marry my partner, why does my partner have to sell her private property if I have not lived in my flat for at least 5 years? No such ruling applies if I buy a private apartment.

5. If I truly enjoy ownership rights to my HDB flat, why will banks not accept my fully paid-up property as collateral for a loan? No such ruling applies if I buy a private apartment.

6. If I not abide by any of the above points as stipulated by the HDB I could have my unit confiscated. No such ruling applies if I buy a private apartment.

SOURCE:
https://www.facebook.com/kinlian/


Anonymous said...

I had thought that "stupidity cannot cure" only applies to daft 70% voters.
Never would I have suspected that it also applies to multi-million dollars ministers!

Unknown said...

Latest from HDB I heard is new flat owner
Are given free camping tent.depend on flat type.
Tent are free hold.flat no.

Anonymous said...

Never would I have suspected that it also applies to multi-million dollars ministers!
September 06, 2018 11:03 pm
------------------

Do you think the following is true?

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
- Upton Sinclair

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/

Anonymous said...

Million dollars pay as public service inculcate entitlement mindset n nuture n build up even more greed resulting in double tongue talks n crazy justification arguments? Its getting clearer n clearer.

Whoever said...

Fact: HDB flats when 99-year lease ends, value become $ZERO$ and have HDB will send you lawyers' letters to force you to evict. And all the money you have paid for the "purchase" of the lease and for all the renovations and up-grading projects will become $ZERO$ also. No compensations whatsoever! PERIOD.

THAT IS THE VERY HARD TRUTH, NOT FAKE NEWS OR HALF-TRUTH or DISINFORMATION.

Whoever said...

FACTs:

3. If you have taken loans and not fully repaid, the Bank or HDB will force you to pay.

4. If you took CPF money to pay for the lease, you have to return the money plus interests back to CPF.

Anonymous said...

4. If you took CPF money to pay for the lease, you have to return the money plus interests back to CPF.
September 07, 2018 8:20 am

So your CPF money ... which is your money.
So you have to pay interest for using your own CPF money to "buy" your HDB flat.

Uniquely Singapore.
We have to pay interest to the government for using our own money.

Is the above true?

Ⓜatilah $ingapura⚠️ said...

@ time for the PAP to go:

3 strikes, and they're out.

When people are clearly wrong, but they DOUBLE DOWN and refuse to give ground, adding ARROGANCE to intimidate their debating opponents, it is time to end the dialogue and TAKE ACTION to prevent these people fromcontinuing their "agenda"

In recent times:

1. STRIKE ONE

LHL talks shit about the oil price wrt RISING electricity prices in Singapore, when the oil price has nothing to do with electricity pricing, since over 90% of the electrical energy generated uses NATURAL GAS, of which the global prices are near historic lows.

FUCK YOU! GET THE FUCK OUT!

2. STRIKE TWO

Mentor Goh Chok Tong defends the high pay for ministers by "doubling down". He states that you'll get mediocre people if you're only offering $500k per year.

FUCK YOU! GET THE FUCK OUT!

3. STRIKE 3

Law-challenged Wong. Doubles down and introduces Orwellian "double speak" : leglly & factually wrong. What the fuck? what does "legally wrong" mean in this context? Does that mean if you say HDB is a leasor-leasee rental agreement, does that make you A CRIMINAL? Fuck this guy!
Also, as Virgo correctly pointed out: WHO THE FUCK HOLDS/ CONTROLS the title deed?. You? Oh, not you. But but but...it is said you OWN the HDB. That means you MUST HOLD the title deed.
Ahah! HDB holds ALL the motherfucking title deeds.
Ergo, QED, facts are facts...NO ONE OWNS THEIR HDB. HDB OWNS THE HDB FLATS..

FUCK YOU! GET THE FUCK OUT!

OK Singapore, you are idiots if you allow these fuckers back in. I don't care how good they are are financial managers. Lying, doubling-down when they are clearly wrong...these should be DEAL BREAKERS to you. They are to me.

LKY always gave it to the people STRAIGHT. No matter how "controversial" or "insulting", LKY never gave bullshit, and he certainly didn't double down and talk rubbish---which in my experience is RARE for a LAWYER. (Most of them are rubbish-spouting assholes who charge monopoly prices)

So Singapore,if you want change, you have to prepare yourselves. Voting out these cunts is going to COST YOU. There will be capital flight. Asset values are likely to fall. Many people might even lose their jobs, and the PAP won't go out "clean". You can rest assured there will be "dirty tricks".

So you need to prepare. Form support networks. Make sure you're not exposed to financial danger---like being over-leveraged. Preserve CAPITAL, have contingencies in place. and most important: watch your mind.

The PAP have warned that voting them out will diminish the cuntry and the people's wealth. Well, yeah, OF COURSE! But SO WHAT? You can always recover.

That is the ONLY THREAT the PAP have over the people. Well, call their fucking bluff. Take the pain, and throw these fuckers OUT.

Virgo 49 said...

Hi Anon 10.08

Resale 2 and a half not 5 years.

Anyway, 5 or 2 and a half restriction as an "owner" of your own flat still required permission from the lessor means you are still a lessee.

As for Anon 9.54 it's true that when you utilised your CPF's funds or monies for your flat or even for your children's education, you and they need to pay back with interests as the interests be earned if you did not withdraw them.

This is when they start working after graduation and yours when you sells your flat. They always thinks that you will always made an profit when you sells as their prices needed to skyrocket to make sure that you made profits to pay them back. So, the next generation or buyer has to carry the extra burden of higher and higher prices that shot to the moon.

Why these rulings??? Where else to get these cheap funds from you and all other dafts to sponsor their projects and still charged you market prices higher and higher so as to sustain paying the earlier buyers.

Sound like a Pyramid Scheme, isn't it.

They will make it sound good for your sake that you must have enough savings.

Enough for the GLCs and Sobering Funds for their Casino investments.